[dickiegera]

West is dealer and passes

---

Should North open 4♥ or 1♥??

Opinions welcomed
Thank you

[inquiry]

To good for an opening 4♥ bid, no where good enough to open 1♥ and then rebid 4♥. I have some sympathy for a 3♥ rebid, but the correct rebid is 2♥.

[aguahombre]

Side note: on the given two hands, nothing matters.

All roads to 4H.

Edit: 1H, then 4H might lead to slam, but it is less than 50/50.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2011-March-06, 21:00

[nigel_k]

inquiry, on 2011-March-06, 20:05, said:

To good for an opening 4♥ bid, no where good enough to open 1♥ and then rebid 4♥. I have some sympathy for a 3♥ rebid, but the correct rebid is 2♥.

Surely 2♥ is not enough. In think it's a choice between 3♥ and 4♥.

[awm]

I would open 4♥ assuming standard methods (although I'd rather have a 3NT opening to show a good 4M bid).

Certainly bidding like this can cause one to miss a slam. However, it pays off so often in pressuring the opponents that it's a big winner in the long run. I actually did a bridge browser analysis of this a while back and opening 4M with a good 7-card suit and a hand in the 12-15 point range was a very consistent (and significant) winning strategy.

The times I've tried this at the table have been quite effective too... sometimes even in funny ways. I remember one time I opened 4♠ and played there cold for six. Yet I got a top board at matchpoints, because the opponents had a huge diamond fit and could make 11 tricks in that strain. So my +680 beat all the people defending some large number of diamonds (usually doubled).

[aguahombre]

yeh, Adam... 4H is nice, but I have to live with my reg pard. And she, for future auctions, would not be happy. She has no vision.

[inquiry]

For what it worth department, I just confirmed Awm's bridgebrowser study, looking at over 20 million auctions, out of which I found a few thousand of times 4H was opened with a 7 or 8 card suit and 12-15 hcp (1st and 2nd seat checked only). It was a winning strategy with a +0.62 imp/hand score and 54.35% matchpoint score. I only looked in 1st and 2nd seat because I would think the risk of messing something up when partner has a good hand (and being unpassed) would be a problem. Further, for what iit is worth, opening 4♥ on 4 to 6 hcp and seven or eight hearts gave similar results (much smaller sample size for that test, looked at 4 million auctions). While 3♥ opening bid broke even (and was by far more common). The 4♥ bid with 4-6 or 12-15 hcp range was a rare beast.

Still, I don't think I would open this 4♥, but I am stubborn.

[Fluffy]

I would open 4♥ but not 4♠ with the similar hand with spades, as always I try to bid 4♥ as much as I can given that opponents will try to bid 4♠ as much as they can over it.

[whereagles]

I have 1M-1x-4M defined as a hand a 4M preempt with a side trick. I.e. more or less the equivalent to a namyats opening.

This particular hand fits nice into the definition.

[hrothgar]

awm, on 2011-March-06, 21:59, said:

I would open 4♥ assuming standard methods (although I'd rather have a 3NT opening to show a good 4M bid).

Certainly bidding like this can cause one to miss a slam. However, it pays off so often in pressuring the opponents that it's a big winner in the long run. I actually did a bridge browser analysis of this a while back and opening 4M with a good 7-card suit and a hand in the 12-15 point range was a very consistent (and significant) winning strategy.

The times I've tried this at the table have been quite effective too... sometimes even in funny ways. I remember one time I opened 4♠ and played there cold for six. Yet I got a top board at matchpoints, because the opponents had a huge diamond fit and could make 11 tricks in that strain. So my +680 beat all the people defending some large number of diamonds (usually doubled).

What he said

[Vampyr]

awm, on 2011-March-06, 21:59, said:

I would open 4♥ assuming standard methods (although I'd rather have a 3NT opening to show a good 4M bid).

To be honest, I have played this for over 10 years and have not noticed any significant gains from the method.

[Lurpoa]

dickiegera, on 2011-March-06, 19:13, said:

West is dealer and passes

---

Should North open 4♥ or 1♥??

Opinions welcomed
Thank you

too strong for a 1♥ opening !
the 4♥rebid is limit, but should be tried - certainly for IMPS.

[Lurpoa]

awm, on 2011-March-06, 21:59, said:

I would open 4♥ assuming standard methods (although I'd rather have a 3NT opening to show a good 4M bid).

Certainly bidding like this can cause one to miss a slam. However, it pays off so often in pressuring the opponents that it's a big winner in the long run. I actually did a bridge browser analysis of this a while back and opening 4M with a good 7-card suit and a hand in the 12-15 point range was a very consistent (and significant) winning strategy.

The times I've tried this at the table have been quite effective too... sometimes even in funny ways. I remember one time I opened 4♠ and played there cold for six. Yet I got a top board at matchpoints, because the opponents had a huge diamond fit and could make 11 tricks in that strain. So my +680 beat all the people defending some large number of diamonds (usually doubled).

Very interesting what you are saying here....
Maybe this should lead to a review of standards methods under SAYC or BWS.

To me, playing SAYC or BWS2001, opening 4♥ on such a hand, is putting the partnership under pressure...Maybe not so much for the possible slam miss, but more on the decision whether to defend or sacrifice.
This said, you might be 100%right: Did you publish your analysis ?

[awm]

I do not think the choice of whether to open 4♥ on this hand is really an issue of methods.

In fact this is why I though it would be ideally suited for bridge browser. It's difficult to test the merits of different methods using bridge browser, because you don't get any information on what people's agreements are. For example, if you look for 1NT openings on 12-14 hcp, you don't know how many of these are people miscounting their points, or people upgrading 14-counts into a strong notrump. Further, the question of what people's methods are is not independent of their skill level and degree of partnership. For example, people who play 1♣ strong usually have more of a partnership than random pickup pairs in the main club, and are also unlikely to be beginners. Thus I would expect that people opening 1♣ on 17-counts with 5+♥ would get a pretty good score... not because the method is particularly good (in fact most experienced strong clubbers don't believe that this hand type is a huge win for the method) but because they are better-than-average players (for BBO field) with better-than-average partnership (for BBO field).

Anyway, I think opening 4♥ with 12-15 hcp and a long heart suit is more or less independent of this sort of thing and more a matter of tactics. I looked at a large number of hands played in the main bridge club, and also looked at a smaller number of hands from tournaments where all players at the table had good lehman ratings (trying to restrict to good players in a "serious" game). In all cases the 4♥ opening was a consistent winner.

Note that in principle I agree that opener's side will sometimes have the last guess when opponents bid over 4♥ (and that partner may have trouble to get it right). I also agree that we will miss a slam sometimes with 4♥-all pass. In fact I used to be very much opposed to opening 4♥ on this style of hand! Yet the bridge browser survey convinced me to change my ways, and I feel that I have gotten a lot more good results than bad since making that change.

[bluecalm]

Quote

Yet the bridge browser survey convinced me to change my ways, and I feel that I have gotten a lot more good results than bad since making that change.

Interesting. It seems that elite pairs are not employing this strategy. They could have their other reasons though. I will try my ways of improving intuition on this one (dealing 100 hands and trying to guess "what would happen"). For now my intuition tells me that it may well be very good strategy.
One question:
If you employ this change do you still open weak hands with 4H thus making it extremely wide range or do you just play it as more constructive ?

Quote

(although I'd rather have a 3NT opening to show a good 4M bid).

I am not a fan. Prepared opponents will use dbl as pure t/o (which could be lighter and more shapish) now and pass and then dbl as heavy nt like/penalty oriented dbl. This gives them significant edge.
This is the reason I think all those transfer openings like Namyats or 3NT as good 4M are garbage.

[awm]

I definitely open 4M on weak hands also.

The 3NT bid has produced good results for me. I think the reason is that I'm not really afraid of "penalty doubles" on these sound hands, so the ability of opponents to show "cards" doesn't really help them substantially. The usual situation is that the high cards are fairly equally divided between them and us, and they need to guess whether to enter the auction (which is necessary if they have a big fit and extremely dangerous if they don't). Having ways to distinguish strong hands from weak hands (which is how most of them use the double) doesn't help all that much with this. In principle you could play "double shows spades" or something (no one really does this that I've encountered), but the fact that you don't even know which major opener has right away tends to reduce the merits.

[y66]

I've never had this hand type so I'll defer to experienced players who open 4H. My instinct is that this hand is too good to open 4H and perhaps even too good to open 1H and bid 4H over 1S. With 1723 or 2713 shape, say x AQJxxxx xx KQx I'd open 1H and jump to 4H over 1S.

[Lurpoa]

awm, on 2011-March-09, 17:22, said:

I do not think the choice of whether to open 4♥ on this hand is really an issue of methods.

In fact this is why I though it would be ideally suited for bridge browser. It's difficult to test the merits of different methods using bridge browser, because you don't get any information on what people's agreements are. For example, if you look for 1NT openings on 12-14 hcp, you don't know how many of these are people miscounting their points, or people upgrading 14-counts into a strong notrump. Further, the question of what people's methods are is not independent of their skill level and degree of partnership. For example, people who play 1♣ strong usually have more of a partnership than random pickup pairs in the main club, and are also unlikely to be beginners. Thus I would expect that people opening 1♣ on 17-counts with 5+♥ would get a pretty good score... not because the method is particularly good (in fact most experienced strong clubbers don't believe that this hand type is a huge win for the method) but because they are better-than-average players (for BBO field) with better-than-average partnership (for BBO field).

Anyway, I think opening 4♥ with 12-15 hcp and a long heart suit is more or less independent of this sort of thing and more a matter of tactics. I looked at a large number of hands played in the main bridge club, and also looked at a smaller number of hands from tournaments where all players at the table had good lehman ratings (trying to restrict to good players in a "serious" game). In all cases the 4♥ opening was a consistent winner.

Note that in principle I agree that opener's side will sometimes have the last guess when opponents bid over 4♥ (and that partner may have trouble to get it right). I also agree that we will miss a slam sometimes with 4♥-all pass. In fact I used to be very much opposed to opening 4♥ on this style of hand! Yet the bridge browser survey convinced me to change my ways, and I feel that I have gotten a lot more good results than bad since making that change.

What is this Bridge browser survey ? were can I find more details on the results ?

[FrancesHinden]

I would open 1H and rebid 2C then (assuming that doesn't end matters) bid more hearts.

I don't think opening 4H on this hand type is solely a matter of tactics/strategy. It will be a winning method more often in an unpractised partnership (even of good players) because you gain the pre-emptive benefit, but you don't have the partnership confidence to bid to delicate slams anyway, so you don't lose out. In a regular partnership you lose more from preempting partner.

That said, I have a regular teammate who likes to open these hands 4H. I'm not yet convinced either way.