BBO Discussion Forums: Reverse bids at the level of 2 (SURVEY) - BBO Discussion Forums

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Reverse bids at the level of 2 (SURVEY)

#1 User is offline   leonidas 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 06:18

Hi all, i'm doing a survey upon the following question: Is a reverse bid at the level of 2, either by the opener or by the responder, game forcing or one round only?
I'll appreciate any answers on the subject in order to make statistics.
But please complete your answer adding theese two informations: 1) your country 2) your BBO level.
I'm doing the same question person by person in BBO too.
I'll inform everybody about the statistic results at the end of this survey both in this forum and personally in BBO.
(This general question was originated by a real case: 1C-1H-2C-2S)
Ty vm
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#2 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 06:59

Reverse by opener is GF only if partner bid 2/1. Otherwise F1R at least.
Reverse by responder is GF always.

Spain in here, I´ve got one of those stars at BBO.
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#3 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 07:17

Two level response by:
Opener - forcing, but not GAME force
Responder - Game force

1) USA
2) Low Expert or high advanced, but somedays intermediate
--Ben--

#4 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 07:34

By responder: GF

By opener: In principle 1RF, but if responder had bid on a sub-minimum hand to try to improve the contract then he can pass here.

I am from the UK
My BBO rating is advanced (I would say my bidding is low expert, my defense is high advanced, and my declarer play is low advanced)

Eric
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#5 User is offline   skorchev 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 07:53

Hi leonidas,

I'll repeat the same what I told you on BBO:

Every reverse bid by the responder is GF.

When the opener doing reverse bid there are only 2 possibilities to stop under game:

1st) PASS by responder.
2nd) Bid in the first suit of opening hand by responder. For example:
1-1
2-3 - sign-off

I'm from Bulgaria. My skill level now is Advanced, but after 10 years - World Class! :)


Stefan
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#6 User is offline   gabika73 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 07:57

By opener:
I like to stick with Ingberman's way here: if responder's second bid is 2nt or lower, he can pass opener's 3-of-1st-suit. (2nt promises stopper iff the 4th suit cannot be bid at the 2-level; the Dallas Aces played it this way)

By responder:
It is not that hard-coded. Partnership has to agree.
I am now playing it as one-round force, invitational only, with my regular partner. I expect to be in a minority with this agreement.

An advancing from Hungary.
gabika
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#7 User is offline   gabika73 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 08:04

Just to add a few lines on Stefans's notes on how to stop below game:

1/ in my view, responder cannot pass a reverse. a reverse is 100% forcing.

2/ 3-of-openers any suit sets trump, and is forward-going. This opens up safe bidding when exploring possible slams.

To play 3 of openers suit, according to Ingberman, you have to slow the auction by:

a / bidding 2 of your own suit, promising 5+
b / bidding the 4th suit if that is at level 2: denying stopper, and denying 5 in your suit.
c / bidding 2nt: promising stopper only if you did not have option b/

Opener must respond to all these bids keeping in mind that his 3-of-first-suit or lower response can be passed.

All the other sequences are game-forcing.

I have been playing this for several years with no problems.
But, I guess, this is another difference between regions, countries, schools...
gabika
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#8 User is offline   skorchev 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 09:04

Hi Gabika,

let me respond to your post:

Quote

1/ in my view, responder cannot pass a reverse. a reverse is 100% forcing.


The reverse CAN be passed if first bid of the responder is underlimit that he should has or at the minimum of the limit and with a specific hand. Of course it happens very rarely.

Quote

2/ 3-of-openers any suit sets trump, and is forward-going. This opens up safe bidding when exploring possible slams.

To play 3 of openers suit, according to Ingberman


This toy is played by your mentor Ingberman (I never heard him/her) and it's a private case. Usually it's sign-off.

Quote

a / bidding 2 of your own suit, promising 5+


I missed this point in my first post, it's another way to stop under game. The repeating of your suit isn't forcing, but it's not sign-off.

Quote

But, I guess, this is another difference between regions, countries, schools...


Here you are absolutely right. :)


Stefan
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#9 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 10:28

Opener cannot GF in SA. Responder is expected to respond 'on air' with no fit, and any hand that could bid game across virtually nothing with no fit is expected to open 2C.

I suppose there are cases where responder could reverse and then change his mind, but opener cannot stop below game. In the way I play with my regular partners, there is no such thing as a responder reverse- it's an inquiry about the suit bid (such as help suit game try, which is how we'd interpret that bidding). Responder is in full control of the auction, so he isn't forced to do anything.

USA Intermediate
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#10 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 10:38

Since I play reverse from opener from 15 HCP, you can hardly say it's GF. Only after 2/1 bid it's GF, since partner has 10+HCP.

Reverse from responser is always GF.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
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#11 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 10:52

i agree with almost everyone... reverse by responder is 100% game force, by opener it's 100% one round force....

usa
advanced overall, but my bidding is dependent on the system.. sometimes not as good as i'd like
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
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#12 User is offline   paulhar 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 15:31

inquiry, on Sep 5 2004, 08:17 AM, said:

Two level response by:
Opener - forcing, but not GAME force
Responder - Game force

1) USA
2) Low Expert or high advanced, but somedays intermediate

Same vote - high advanced, USA
I tend to lead fourth best - as opposed to the best suit, the second best suit, or the third best suit for our side
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#13 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 16:17

I agree with most people:

Reverse by opener promises a rebid, but responder may pass (but only rarely). I also prefer 2NT as weakest bid.

Reverse by reponder at 2-level is gameforcing (over 1X-1Y-1Z) and shows a very distributional hand (otherwise go through checkback). In most other sequences it is an artificial game force (e.g. 4th suit, Bourke relay).

I'm Dutch but play bridge in the US.

I don't understand the levels at BBO, and I rarely agree with other peoples levels. Good players tend to be too polite, while weak players tend to be.. less polite. For practical reasons I say I'm an expert, so that more good players will play with me. I guess my above reasoning tells me I'm mediocre ;) .
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#14 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 16:27

I play forcing for 1 round, and I use Lebensohl after a reverse if responder has such an appaling hand that he wishes to sign off at the 3 level. However, I also tell my partners to make sure they have their bid if they reverse, especially with the sequence 1H 1NT 2S

As responder it is GF, although can stop in 4m if no stopper in a suit for 3NT.

I'm from the UK, and I reckon I can play a bit on a good day. Won't say anything more than that though
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#15 User is offline   skorchev 

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Posted 2004-September-06, 02:13

Quote

For practical reasons I say I'm an expert, so that more good players will play with me. I guess my above reasoning tells me I'm mediocre  .


Hi Hannie,

I don't think that if you post your BBO level is Expert more "good" players will play with you. I know many Advanced players who are better players than Experts, World Classes and than some stars. And if you "raise" your skill level to Expert but really you are Intermediate (sorry, I don't know what is your level, and I don't want to insult you, it's principally to these who "raise" his level) the "good" players will play only once or twice with you and then will put you in their enemy-lists.


Stefan
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#16 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-September-06, 03:40

skorchev, on Sep 6 2004, 09:13 AM, said:

Quote

For practical reasons I say I'm an expert, so that more good players will play with me. I guess my above reasoning tells me I'm mediocre  .


Hi Hannie,

I don't think that if you post your BBO level is Expert more "good" players will play with you. I know many Advanced players who are better players than Experts, World Classes and than some stars. And if you "raise" your skill level to Expert but really you are Intermediate (sorry, I don't know what is your level, and I don't want to insult you, it's principally to these who "raise" his level) the "good" players will play only once or twice with you and then will put you in their enemy-lists.


Stefan

Exactly. Or with a note at the bottom "fake expert". This is how I do it actually...

Many people ruined the value of the "expert"-status this way so at the moment I like advanced players more than so-called experts or worldclass.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
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#17 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2004-September-06, 07:40

Free, on Sep 6 2004, 04:40 AM, said:

Many people ruined the value of the "expert"-status this way so at the moment I like advanced players more than so-called experts or worldclass.

To me, the definition of Expert on BBO is "Thinks they have the right to abuse intermediates". This is especially sad when they're subbing in a tourney.
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#18 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-September-06, 07:49

jtfanclub, on Sep 5 2004, 12:28 PM, said:

Opener cannot GF in SA. Responder is expected to respond 'on air' with no fit, and any hand that could bid game across virtually nothing with no fit is expected to open 2C.

1-1
4
--Ben--

#19 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2004-September-06, 07:52

inquiry, on Sep 6 2004, 08:49 AM, said:

jtfanclub, on Sep 5 2004, 12:28 PM, said:

Opener cannot GF in SA.  Responder is expected to respond 'on air' with no fit, and any hand that could bid game across virtually nothing with no fit is expected to open 2C.

1-1
4

Allow me to repeat myself.

any hand that could bid game across virtually nothing WITH NO FIT is expected to open 2C.

This has a fit, and the bid you mention isn't forcing at all- in fact, it's a sign off.

What's your point?
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#20 User is offline   leonidas 

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  Posted 2004-September-06, 07:54

Thank you very mutch to all of you!! Very interesting opinions.
I like to inform you that i'm doing the same question, directly person by person, to many Stars, WC, Experts and so on in BBO when i'm connected.
At this point in time, after one day from the beginning, i have collected 25 answers in this forum plus in BBO.
It is too early to make statistics ofcourse.
I think i'll go on for many days.
At the end i hope to be able to summarize and i'll divulge the risults, in total and divided by cathegories: per countries, per Stars, ecc.
At this point in time 13 answers are = opener ORF; responder GF
10 answers are = both ORF
2 answers are = both GF

See you :D
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