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Odd/even What are they?

#1 User is offline   Timbitt 

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Posted 2004-September-03, 23:07

Greetings!

Many players in the BIL tag the phrase OE or OE 1rst discard on their profiles and I just do not know what these discards really are.

I should like to know how a partnership uses them to defend AND I should dearly love to hear what are the expected gains and losses to using them over standard discards.

If there be a site that explains this, please do direct me to it.

Frankly, I struggle plenty with standard defence methods; nonetheless, I would like to read such discrads better as declarer.

Thanks

Tim
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#2 User is offline   keylime 

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  Posted 2004-September-03, 23:33

Odd/even discards, sometimes referred to as Italian discards, occur most often on the first failure to follow suit.

If an odd pip of a suit is played, that suit is requested. If an even pip of a suit is played, not only is that suit no longer wanted, but the number of the pip determines which of the other two suits is wanted (high pip = high suit, low pip = low suit).

It's popular in certain areas of the United States, and I myself have played it. It's not too bad.
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#3 User is offline   uday 

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Posted 2004-September-03, 23:44

You can point your browser to http://www.google.com
and search for
odd even discards

You'll find several hits that provide details.

The biggest flaw, i believe, is that you may not have an appropriate card (odd or even , or of the right rank ) to make the signal you wish to make.
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#4 User is offline   keylime 

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  Posted 2004-September-04, 00:06

I wholeheartedly agree with Uday. At times you're stuck. VERY stuck.

I don't use odd/even anymore. I use reverse suit preference Lav. Works pretty good as long as you can keep track of it.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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#5 User is offline   sceptic 

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Posted 2004-September-04, 00:14

I play o/e with my p, odd discard for that suit and even discard for a different suit, though I am no expert, I suppose at my level (intermediate at best) I cant work out the advantage of std discards o/e or lavinthal, I do find lavinthal easier to use, but I still get stuck which card to use sometimes (well most times really haha )
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#6 User is offline   keylime 

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  Posted 2004-September-04, 00:22

I used to absolutely loathe Lav - now I use a form of it and it really makes sense!! It took a lot of work for me to learn what to pitch, but we worked it out.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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#7 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-September-04, 06:54

Welcome to the Bridgebase forum Timbritt...

In addition to uday's suggestion, you may also want to take a look the the following thread in this very forum...

"beginners guide to count and signalling"

The fourth or fifth post in that thread deals with Odd/Even and other count siganals.

Ben
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#8 User is offline   Timbitt 

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Posted 2004-September-04, 10:13

Seek and ye shall find:-)

You all answered my questions AND pointed me to Inquiry's highly useful series of posts on the topic.

Yabba-dabba-doo! Thanks!
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#9 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2004-September-04, 12:01

The big advantage of odd/even discards is that it is easy to remember and is less strain on a partnership than (any form of) Lavinthal.

It also works well, without further discussion, when there are only two suits to choose from.

Interestingly, although odd/even discards are permitted in the UK odd/even signals are not. This is because of the hesitation that typically occurs when you cannot follow suit with the appropriate card. Of course, when discarding typically there are at least two suits to discard in.

p
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I don't work for BBO and any advice is based on my BBO experience over the decades
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#10 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2004-September-04, 12:14

i had a partner once who liked o/e over a suit contract and lav over nt... don't quite know why, but she wanted it so we did it

i'm easy that way
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#11 User is offline   skorchev 

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Posted 2004-September-04, 13:21

I played Italian(o/e) discarding 2-3 years, when you learn it, it's very easy to know suit preferences of your partner(if he is the discarter), but for the declarer is easy too and for that it isn't played by the strong players. I have 2 regular partners now and with the one I play reverse direct discouraging and with other - reverse count (That doesn't means that I'm in the group of the strong players). :)


Stefan
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#12 User is offline   etherwiz 

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Posted 2004-September-04, 15:50

I perfer the Odd/Even system. But I also play a varient. Odd 1st play on a suit means I like the suit (even if I have to go HIGH). Even 1st play means I do not (Even if even card IS HIGH). Same applies on discard (to the siut I discarded) but the not liking the suit I discarded only means I MIGHT LIKE THE OTHER SUIT (chances pretty good cause by the time that happens three suits have been played ond if I showed no preference allready then either the last suit is good or we want a new dealer !

Sure - sometimes you can not have the proper card in hand, and a lot of times the proper card to play (out of my hand) is an 8 ot worse yet 10 to show "No More PLEASE" but then again, if I only have a few then maybe I can trump in later. Bit then there is always the ten 7 5 3 (four cards and too show disfavour I MUST THEN play the 10 on the first trick ! usally not desired logical play).

But I have found very few who want to play even the unmodified OE carding.

Most time people want Odd/Even to show Origional Number (odd/evven number) in hand. Still more want the simplier HIGH = Wanted (most time). LOW = "no way OR I have no choice".

No matter what convention is used your hands will never fit it !

_*_Dave
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#13 User is offline   bearmum 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 05:30

keylime, on Sep 4 2004, 07:06 PM, said:

I wholeheartedly agree with Uday. At times you're stuck. VERY stuck.

I don't use odd/even anymore. I use reverse suit preference Lav. Works pretty good as long as you can keep track of it.

Interesting comment - I have TRIED a few times to master o/e discards and as you say LOTS of times u are STUCK :)

My husband ( partner of MORE than 30 years) and I play 'revolving' discards and I find them easy to play (and MORE important in my "senior" moments easy to remember)

BTW I can play Lav discards too :) BUT reverse suit pref Lav would REALLY tax my 'senior' memory :P
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#14 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 09:27

uday, on Sep 4 2004, 06:44 AM, said:

~snip~
The biggest flaw, i believe, is that you may not have an appropriate card (odd or even , or of the right rank ) to make the signal you wish to make.

I just LOVE O/E discards. I try to play them with everyone who knows them!

About that missing appropriate card: I have this situation about once each year or so where it goes wrong.
Other times, after a lot of following, you indeed get this problem a lot more (like when you have only 5 cards left). However, your partner should be able to know what suit you want, even before you have to discard. Also, he should take it into account that you might be missing an appropriate card in such situations, so that your discard could be a wrong one.

It only gave me 2 bad scores in several years, but it gave me a lot of good scores in return! The biggest advantage is when you have a length: you can discard your useless cards, and usually ask for ANY suit you want.
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#15 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 18:53

I used to play odd/even (and still do with one partner). I'm not a big fan of it. Here are the main reasons:

1) As said before, sometimes you're stuck. I don't think that it happens as often as the other replies suggest.

2) I love declaring against odd/even partnerships. It's so easy to understand what they are signaling.

3) It's not possible to give a somewhat neutral signal. For instance, with standard or UDCA signals you can show you dislike a suit (which might already be obvious to partner) without showing a prefence for one of the other suits. Such a signal is harder when playing odd/even.

Still, I would suggest you try it with a regular partner, and see how you like it. It might be fun!
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#16 User is offline   bridgeboy 

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Posted 2004-September-05, 23:13

I thought I might introduce another aspect of O/E signalling.

In the cases where you are 'stuck' which seems to be quite a bit from what I read above, there could be an ethical issue involved..

When you are stuck, you might go into a hesitation and then come up with say a small odd card. Now, your pard will be in possession of UI? Might be sticky on how he handles it.

I recognise this is not a unique problem and might happen to those playing Lav or std carding. However,I 'm sure those playing std and lav will not have as many problems as there are very few 'stuck spots'.

I usually play lavinthal discards myself but often play against 'OE opps' and have noticed this phenomenon... Your opinions on this?
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#17 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2004-September-06, 01:00

I beg to differ. I see only advantages of O/E (AKA Roman) signals.

In standard carding, the rank of the cards (most encouraging > least encouraging) is K-Q-J-....4-3-2. This is nice if want to discourage since you discard a low card, but to encourage you may have to play an intermediate card, and partner must be empathic enough to realize that the 7, allthough not you highest card, may be the highest card you can afford. With inverted signals, you may have the same problem when discouraging although it could be argued that that is a smaller problem.

In O/E carding, the rank is 3-5-...-K-Q-...-4-2. (Actually, the honours may not be included since they are governed by natural principles). This reduces the risk that you can't afford the most correct signal. In a situation where only Lavinthal applies you could agree to play "odd=higher suit, even=lower suit".

I don't play O/E because it is too complicated for me. Certainly, it does not make much sense only to distinguish between odd and even without using the entire ranking. In that case, standard (or inverted) carding is easier as well as more effective.
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#18 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2004-September-06, 03:39

The point of missing the appropriate card when following suit with Odd even signals is in my opinion overrated.

If we exclude the top 5 honors in the deck, too valuable to signal with them, we are left with 8 cards, 4 of which are odd and 4 of which are even.

The probability of having only low spots when you want to encourage or only high spots when you want to discourage is similar to the one of having only an even or odd card when you need the opposite.

As an aside, many people play that the lower the card played, the stronger the attitude signal (regardless of encouragement/discouragement) : e.g. a 2 or a 3 is strongly discouraging/encouraging, whereas a 8/7 may be a mild signal.

Odd/even is very easy and in Italy is actually taught to beginners which do not really have any problem with it.

I personally find that it fits better with a precise scheme of leads from honor sequences which ask partner to give count or attitude.

So I think it is just a matter of familiarity: some players think Odd-even discards are odd, just like I myself consider vegetarian people a bit weird :D
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#19 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-September-06, 03:52

I don't know how many boards you guys defend every day, but I usually play quite a lot, and I get stuck REALLY RARE!!! Perhaps I follow certain suits better so I don't play my discards for the future :D

Before I played o/e with my f2f partner, he also thought you miss the correct cards too often. So I suggested a test-period, and if he still had the same doubts we could see later. He never wanted to switch back to something else...

The big advantage is that you can show any suit in 3 ways! That's why you don't get stuck too many times. Example they play and you want :
- any odd
- any low even
- any high even
You'll usually have one of these. Btw, "low" is quite relative. If dummy has 642, then your 8 will be a small one :D
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#20 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2004-September-06, 10:18

i agree with free about getting stuck... the only real drawback is that declarer can read the position... but if you play pure udca the same can be said, often
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