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"Manufactured" Bids

#21 User is offline   relknes 

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Posted 2011-February-14, 15:50

View Posthrothgar, on 2011-February-14, 14:07, said:

You might find the following URL very helpful

http://lmgtfy.com/?q...onvention+chart

After consulting said URL, please explain what clause in the GCC sanctions the 1D bid that you are describing:

Couple quick hints:

Your 1D opening isn't "strong" (It doesn't promise 15+ HCPs)
I don't think that your 1D opening is "All purpose"

In any case, opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one.

At the end of the day, the only opinion that actually matter's is the ACBL...
(Regardless of what I or anyone else on this mailing list might believe, you need to ask Memphis)

As with any other dealing with Memphis, its best to use a triple modular redundancy to check for faults.

It is an "All purpose opening bid" promising 10+ points, with a conventional meaning, much like the Polish Club which promises either a strong hand or a weak hand with a particular shape.
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#22 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2011-February-14, 16:17

View Postrelknes, on 2011-February-14, 15:50, said:

It is an "All purpose opening bid" promising 10+ points, with a conventional meaning, much like the Polish Club which promises either a strong hand or a weak hand with a particular shape.


Funny, last time you explained the bid, you provided a much more specific explanation...

You specifically described the bid as showing either

1. A Fatunes style weak 2 bid in a major OR
2. Balanced with 17+ HCP OR
3. 17+ HCP with various minor oriented shapes

I'll bet dollars to donuts that if I submit that description to Memphis and ask whether this qualifies as an "all purpose 1D opening" they'll say no.
Furthermore, I almost guarantee that if you try to trot out said opening in any serious event it will get contested and bounced...

But, what do I care...
Invest an enormous amount of time and effort on your methods, then check whether they're legal...
Alderaan delenda est
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#23 User is offline   relknes 

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Posted 2011-February-14, 17:39

View Posthrothgar, on 2011-February-14, 16:17, said:

Funny, last time you explained the bid, you provided a much more specific explanation...

You specifically described the bid as showing either

1. A Fatunes style weak 2 bid in a major OR
2. Balanced with 17+ HCP OR
3. 17+ HCP with various minor oriented shapes

I'll bet dollars to donuts that if I submit that description to Memphis and ask whether this qualifies as an "all purpose 1D opening" they'll say no.
Furthermore, I almost guarantee that if you try to trot out said opening in any serious event it will get contested and bounced...

But, what do I care...
Invest an enormous amount of time and effort on your methods, then check whether they're legal...

Alright, I sent the question to the ACBL. I will post here when I get the answer.
You had asked for me to provide a citation as to where it was permitted to have a conventional 1 opening bid, so that's what I did. The specific contents of that convention are erroneous, since it fits into the general guidelines set down on the GCC.
I was actually more concerned with the word "or" that appears in that clause of the GCC. It says that a 1 or 1 bid may be used as an all purpose bid showing 10+ points, but that dosn't necesarilly mean that 1 AND 1 can be used for that in the same system.
I appologize if I frustrated you... just trying to get some clarification as to why you thought that this bid was less "all purpose" than a Polish Club opening.
I'll let you know when the ACBL gets back to me.
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#24 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2011-February-15, 08:07

View Postrelknes, on 2011-February-14, 17:39, said:

You had asked for me to provide a citation as to where it was permitted to have a conventional 1 opening bid, so that's what I did. The specific contents of that convention are erroneous, since it fits into the general guidelines set down on the GCC.
...
I appologize if I frustrated you... just trying to get some clarification as to why you thought that this bid was less "all purpose" than a Polish Club opening.


Unfortunately, reading/understanding the ACBL convention charts is often more a matter of art than science.

For whatever reason, the ACBL treats the all purpose 1 bids very differently than "all purpose" 1 bids.

The ACBL wants Polish Club to be legal, therefore a Polish style 1C opening is deemed to be all purpose
The ACBL wants Precision to be legal, therefore Precision 1D openings that promise 0+ Diamond are deemed to be all purpose.
The ACBL doesn't want any MOSCITO variants to be legal, therefore a 1D opening that explictly promises 4+ Spades is not considered all purpose.

I think that the organization has its head up its ass and that they should provide clear guidance on these types of issues rahter than forcing people to waste lots of time and effort mastering the fine art of reading tea leaves...

Sorry if some of this frustration spilled over...
Alderaan delenda est
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#25 User is offline   relknes 

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Posted 2011-February-15, 08:27

View Posthrothgar, on 2011-February-15, 08:07, said:

Unfortunately, reading/understanding the ACBL convention charts is often more a matter of art than science.

For whatever reason, the ACBL treats the all purpose 1 bids very differently than "all purpose" 1 bids.

The ACBL wants Polish Club to be legal, therefore a Polish style 1C opening is deemed to be all purpose
The ACBL wants Precision to be legal, therefore Precision 1D openings that promise 0+ Diamond are deemed to be all purpose.
The ACBL doesn't want any MOSCITO variants to be legal, therefore a 1D opening that explictly promises 4+ Spades is not considered all purpose.

I think that the organization has its head up its ass and that they should provide clear guidance on these types of issues rahter than forcing people to waste lots of time and effort mastering the fine art of reading tea leaves...

Sorry if some of this frustration spilled over...

I just heard back from the ACBL. Here is a copy of the e-mail that I sent them, and their reply.

My e-mail to them:
Hi, I had a question about the GCC, and was told I should contact the ACBL. I hope this is the right e-mail adress to contact. If not, please send me the right one, and ignore the rest of this e-mail.
The GCC allows a bid of 1 Clubs or 1 Diamonds to be "An all purpose opening bid, natural or artificial, promising a minimum of 10 high card points." There are some questions, however, as to what an "All purpose bid" is.
For instance, is it allowed to have one of these bids show: 10-12 points and a 5 card minor with an unbalanced hand OR 17+ points with a 4+ card major.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Chris Senkler

Their reply:
These appear to fit the 'all-purpose' category.
Rick Beye

So it would apear that "all-purpose" is slightly more broad than you were giving it credit for.
I share some of your frustration with the ACBL over their regulations. Some people say that in any game, cirtain moves are legal and others are not, such as in chess, you can only move a pawn a cirtain distance. However, this is a false comparison, because other games regulate the mechanics, not the intent. Saying "You can open with a bid of 2, but it can't mean XYZ" is a bit like chess authorities saying "You can open with e4, but you can't be trying for a quick checkmate." The ACBL is free to regulate mechanics, such as informing the opponents of the meaning of the bid, what information needs to be on the card, and even whether or not you can open with a bid of, say, 3. They seem to move into questionable territory, however, when they regulate the ideas behind those mechanics... just my opinion.
I am relieved to see, however, that when it comes to the 1 and 1 bids, they can mean prety much anything, so long as they promise 10 points. I assume that this is because the ACBL has such a strong aversion to preemption, while they hve very little problem with constructive bids (even though both are viable strategies). 1 and 1 are the least preemptive bids possible, and if they promise 10+ points, then they cannot be used destructively in even the slightest way.
I believe that where MOSCITO tends to get in trouble is with their 1NT and 2 level openings, because they are preemptive and considered destructive.
I appreciate your advice to go and check with them. I didn't realize that a nobody player like me could actually consult with them, which is why I was posting my question here.
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#26 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2011-February-15, 09:05

View Postrelknes, on 2011-February-15, 08:27, said:


Their reply:
These appear to fit the 'all-purpose' category.
Rick Beye



Glad to hear that you got an accomodating answer...

My one caution in not to invest too much time / efoort before you ask the same question a couple more times.
There is absolutely no guaruntee that you'll get the same answer from a different part of the organization
(or even the same answer from the same part of the organization on different days)

You might want to consult some earlier threads that tried to establish whether a 2 opening that showed

5+ Spades
4+ cards in either minor
and ~ 6 - 10 HCP

is natural or not...
Alderaan delenda est
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#27 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2011-February-15, 09:07

View Postrelknes, on 2011-February-15, 08:27, said:

I believe that where MOSCITO tends to get in trouble is with their 1NT and 2 level openings, because they are preemptive and considered destructive.


MOSCITO runs into trouble because of the

1
1
and 1 openings

The Convention Committee refuses to sanction any defenses to said openings.
Alderaan delenda est
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