[gurgistan]

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Bidding went: East passed. I passed. Partner bid 2N. West passed. I bid 3N. All pass.

I think this hand misses out on a slam - just. It is tantalizing for sure.

However, I pondered over whether I should use Stayman in this spot to discover whether we had a spade fit to play in 4♠. I dismissed it on the basis that if we didn't then I just tell opponents where our weakness is. I also reasoned that though a small slam was not on there would be overtricks and 3N should yield more overtricks than 4♠.

I know there are spots when it is correct to not use Stayman was this one of them?

Other considerations: my card says Puppet over 2n BUT I am as rusty as hell and no way I would have remembered the sequences. Also, partner is unknown.

[Rossoneri]

gurgistan, on 2011-February-05, 19:16, said:

However, I pondered over whether I should use Stayman in this spot to discover whether we had a spade fit to play in 4♠. I dismissed it on the basis that if we didn't then I just tell opponents where our weakness is. I also reasoned that though a small slam was not on there would be overtricks and 3N should yield more overtricks than 4♠.

1. Are you playing IMPs or MPs?
2. You've got a combined 31 count at least, when would you think it's right to bid Stayman then?

[gurgistan]

Rossoneri, on 2011-February-05, 19:22, said:

1. Are you playing IMPs or MPs?
2. You've got a combined 31 count at least, when would you think it's right to bid Stayman then?

It's not about point count.

Not using Stayman is about not tipping off opponents to the best line to take against you when you are in 3N.

I am just wondering if this spot was one where that applied.

[mtvesuvius]

Usually with 4333 hands you can ignore stayman, on 4432 or better hands though you'll want to search for the major fit. Often the major will play better since you have a ruffing value.

[BunnyGo]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-February-05, 21:14, said:

Usually with 4333 hands you can ignore stayman, on 4432 or better hands though you'll want to search for the major fit. Often the major will play better since you have a ruffing value.

I generally agree with this, but also find that if we have extra values (and especially if our values are Queens and kings) 3NT will play better.

[barmar]

I don't see how using Stayman will pinpoint your weakness. If opener bids 3♦, the opponents know that HE doesn't have 4 hearts, but they don't know that YOU don't. And if RHO has long hearts, he was probably going to lead them anyway, so I doubt the Stayman response will really help the defense.

[bluecalm]

I like 3NT on this one.
If I stayman that's surely to make a slam attempt. I think 3NT is better than 4♠ at both IMPs and MPs with that many hcp combined.

[1eyedjack]

Personally I would Stayman mainly because of the possibility that opener has a fifth Spade. But I would not criticise a partner who did not.

[peachy]

I would Stayman. My card often has Puppet Stayman which IMO is better over 2NT than regular. The hand has aces and kings and a ruffing value, all indicative of suit contract or slam. Despite its balanced shape, with a major suit fit I would rather play in a suit contract, expecting it to play at least a trick better than NT.

[jschafer]

Which weakness are you trying to hide by bidding 3NT? If anything, thinking you have a weakness is a case for bidding stayman rather than 3NT. With a suit wide open for the defence to attack you want to be ruffing that suit if possible, not discarding on it by playing NT. If they do have a suit that poses a danger when you have this many hcps they must have a lot of length in it and will lead it regardless of your bidding (even though I don't think stayman here is very revealing). The presence of a threatening suit also increases the chances your side has a ♠ fit.

Yet it seems quite unlikely that you are going down in 3NT irrespective of which suit they lead, your side rates to have honours everywhere. Nevertheless they could have a whole stack of hearts opposite partner's xx(x) with an inconveniently placed King or so, then you may get unlucky and go down in 3NT (with 6♠ maybe being cold!). If you bid stayman you could find a fit in ♠ and play there or bid 3NT later if you don't (4♠ rates to score better than 3NT with a ♠ fit, especially with AAK instead of slow tricks). An additional and perhaps more important advantage of stayman is that if you do have a fit, you have an excellent hand to make a slam try with all those controls.

[pooltuna]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-February-05, 21:14, said:

Usually with 4333 hands you can ignore stayman, on 4432 or better hands though you'll want to search for the major fit. Often the major will play better since you have a ruffing value.

But as your point count goes up you usually only have specific finesse losers or specific ace losers...cards that keep you from making slam not 3NT. Basically you can ignor stayman if you are in the 28-32 HCP zone. This also avoids playing in an 8 card major fit when you have a 5-0 break.

[mycroft]

At MPs, with Extras, 3NT will often take the same number of tricks as 4S, should partner have 4 spades. If partner has <4S, then avoiding Stayman will avoid pinpointing declarer's hand (with a heart stopper in the "could be their 8-card-fit" suit, not as big a deal here - either they're leading a heart right off anyway, or switching won't help them much), and that might be worth a trick. So I'd probably blast 3NT. On the other hand, I *know* I'm bad at "guessing" 3NT vs 4M at MPs, so I only do it when all the signs are in my favour (and I'm still bad at it, so take the analysis for what it's worth).

At IMPs, it's too much of a gamble for me for a potential overtrick - especially again as I'm not all that worried about pinpointing the heart lead.

[jschafer]

I'd be curious to see a simulation of 3NT vs 4♠ if partner has 4-5♠.

[CSGibson]

a contributing factor for me is that you have bad spades. I would support just bidding 3N here because you might wind up with 3 trump losers alone opposite the wrong hand in a 4-4 fit anyway, and because of the play advantage to an unrevealing auction balances the merits of finding a 4-4 spade fit in this case.

[karlson]

I agree with the Tuna -- 29-31 or so is that awkward range where you very often don't make an extra trick playing in the suit. I think 3n was a good bid.

[Cyberyeti]

I would probably use 5 card stayman and play 3N unless partner has 5 spades, where I will make a slam try.

[Rossoneri]

gurgistan, on 2011-February-05, 20:57, said:

It's not about point count.

Not using Stayman is about not tipping off opponents to the best line to take against you when you are in 3N.

I am just wondering if this spot was one where that applied.

Well, with 31 HCP, it's not very likely that bidding stayman will be tipping off opponents, hence I disagree. I do agree with other posters that with that many points, 3N usually rates to be the better contract, but there is a real risk of missing a cold 6♠. Jorrit probably sums it up the best.

jschafer, on 2011-February-06, 08:32, said:

Which weakness are you trying to hide by bidding 3NT? If anything, thinking you have a weakness is a case for bidding stayman rather than 3NT. With a suit wide open for the defence to attack you want to be ruffing that suit if possible, not discarding on it by playing NT. If they do have a suit that poses a danger when you have this many hcps they must have a lot of length in it and will lead it regardless of your bidding (even though I don't think stayman here is very revealing). The presence of a threatening suit also increases the chances your side has a ♠ fit.

Yet it seems quite unlikely that you are going down in 3NT irrespective of which suit they lead, your side rates to have honours everywhere. Nevertheless they could have a whole stack of hearts opposite partner's xx(x) with an inconveniently placed King or so, then you may get unlucky and go down in 3NT (with 6♠ maybe being cold!). If you bid stayman you could find a fit in ♠ and play there or bid 3NT later if you don't (4♠ rates to score better than 3NT with a ♠ fit, especially with AAK instead of slow tricks). An additional and perhaps more important advantage of stayman is that if you do have a fit, you have an excellent hand to make a slam try with all those controls.

[pooltuna]

Rossoneri, on 2011-February-08, 08:35, said:

Well, with 31 HCP, it's not very likely that bidding stayman will be tipping off opponents, hence I disagree. I do agree with other posters that with that many points, 3N usually rates to be the better contract, but there is a real risk of missing a cold 6♠. Jorrit probably sums it up the best.

this is when you use Stayman instead of transferring the ninth trump often will provide a means of finding the 12th trick

[bluecalm]

I forgot about puppet which I am not used to playing. I think that there is a way to discover 5-4 fit then we should stayman on this hand (to bid slam opposite 5spades).

[barmar]

CSGibson, on 2011-February-08, 01:03, said:

a contributing factor for me is that you have bad spades. I would support just bidding 3N here because you might wind up with 3 trump losers alone opposite the wrong hand in a 4-4 fit anyway, and because of the play advantage to an unrevealing auction balances the merits of finding a 4-4 spade fit in this case.

But after you lose those 3 trumps, you can score the remaining trumps separately if you play in spades. If you plan in NT, they're just one trick.