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Trouble after negative double

#1 User is offline   Antraxxx 

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Posted 2011-February-07, 01:34


Was 1 the right call? (I was hoping partner would be the one to declare NT)
What now?
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#2 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2011-February-07, 01:45

View PostAntraxxx, on 2011-February-07, 01:34, said:

What now?

2 would be OK if you were weaker. As it is 2, asking for a stopper for NTs, is probably best.
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#3 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2011-February-07, 08:43

1D was the right call. Some might bid 1NT if a flat ten-count is acceptable to partner, or 2NT if 10-12 agreed and strictly point counting, but I like the 1D bid.

Did you have an agreement what the Dbl was?
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#4 User is offline   Antraxxx 

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Posted 2011-February-07, 10:11

Yeah, negative double showing a four card heart suit (with five he'd bid 2H), no HCP limit.
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#5 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2011-February-07, 11:03

2S. Will pass 2N or 3m.
"I think maybe so and so was caught cheating but maybe I don't have the names right". Sure, and I think maybe your mother .... Oh yeah, that was someone else maybe. -- kenberg

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#6 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2011-February-07, 11:44

I generally play this auction as good hand with no clear direction (a negative double is usually when the auction goes 1C-(1S)-X the double being by responder), but if you've agreed negative doubles here, then I also bid 2S.

I would rather strongly suggest you don't play 2H as showing at least 5, it would promise at least 6-5 and they don't get dealt too often (not to mention that with a dead minimum, you might have opened 1H in fear of a 1S response). You might get away with it promising 6-4, but I'd rather keep it as a natural reverse.
Wayne Somerville
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#7 User is offline   Antraxxx 

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Posted 2011-February-07, 12:05

Thanks, good point. Never occurred to me that negative double makes no sense as opener's second bid (though I talked with p afterward and that's indeed what he meant). I'll tell him and we'll drop the agreement, though I'm not sure what double would be instead (responsive?)
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#8 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2011-February-07, 14:14

Huh? Why does it make "no sense"? It's not generally called a "negative double" though since those are usually reserved for responder's doubles over an onvercall.

Whether it makes sense for opener's double to show hearts depends mainly on your responding style of 1d. If you are playing a strict "Walsh" style where responder will always respond hearts, holding hearts + diamonds, without a game forcing hand, it's not very useful for opener to show hearts, since responder either doesn't have them or will be able to bid them later. If you are playing an up-the-line style where responder will frequently bid 1d with 4-4/4-5 in the reds, it's more useful for opener to be able to show hearts so you don't lose your fit.

The most common reasonable uses for opener's double here are showing hearts, showing 3 cd diamond support, and manudude's "good hand no clear direction".
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#9 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-February-07, 14:33

1NT looks nice.. Depends what opening poster means by negative double but I'm guessing almost any opening hand with 4 hearts would make it, so usually 1NT is where I'd like to play...
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#10 User is offline   Antraxxx 

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Posted 2011-February-08, 01:41

1NT with no spade stopper?

Quote

Huh? Why does it make "no sense"? It's not generally called a "negative double" though since those are usually reserved for responder's doubles over an onvercall.
Well, as mentioned it's unlikely he has 5 hearts unless he has a 6-5 shape. A negative double to the best of my knowledge shows you lack either the length or strength to show your major at the 2-level. It's unlikely opener has length and lacks strength, and the "strength and no length" case can be moved to be the 2 call in this situation, no?

Quote

If you are playing an up-the-line style where responder will frequently bid 1d with 4-4/4-5 in the reds, it's more useful for opener to be able to show hearts so you don't lose your fit.
We're playing up-the-line (though 1NT over 1 was considered). So is 2 a bad way to show hearts?
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#11 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2011-February-08, 03:05

1NT is by far the most descriptive bid you can make. You have a balanced hand after all.
2H to show H would show a very strong hand with 5C and 4H. Strong because you invite preference to 3C if pd has no heart fit.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#12 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2011-February-08, 03:18

There are times when you would want to bid 1NT without a stopper, this isn't one of those times though. Partner is not going to be too happy when you're in 3NT and you lose the first 5 tricks with a Q lead through his Kxx.

Maybe I'm influenced by my own preferred methods, but partner shouldn't be doubling with a random 12 count with 4 hearts. Pass with that and leave partner to tell you if it's your hand. You will occasionally lose a 4-4 heart fit that way, but most of the time that happens, you were getting outbid in anyway.

This is one of those auctions why a lot of people play a walsh style since often you don't have any clear way of introducing hearts now. Even if double shows 4, if the opps bid 2 which is likely, then you don't have a way to show a competitive* hand with hearts without using some gadget.

* Some people may advocate that 3 is just competitive, but now you can't show an invitational hand forcing you to decide whether to go low or force to game light.
Wayne Somerville
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#13 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-February-08, 04:32

View Postmanudude03, on 2011-February-08, 03:18, said:

There are times when you would want to bid 1NT without a stopper, this isn't one of those times though. Partner is not going to be too happy when you're in 3NT and you lose the first 5 tricks with a Q lead through his Kxx.

Maybe I'm influenced by my own preferred methods, but partner shouldn't be doubling with a random 12 count with 4 hearts. Pass with that and leave partner to tell you if it's your hand. You will occasionally lose a 4-4 heart fit that way, but most of the time that happens, you were getting outbid in anyway.

This is one of those auctions why a lot of people play a walsh style since often you don't have any clear way of introducing hearts now. Even if double shows 4, if the opps bid 2 which is likely, then you don't have a way to show a competitive* hand with hearts without using some gadget.

* Some people may advocate that 3 is just competitive, but now you can't show an invitational hand forcing you to decide whether to go low or force to game light.

From where I'm standing this looks not unlike

1-(1)-x-p,

where it's quite normal to rebid 1NT without a stopper. Agree though that it seems quite important to know how often partner will double 1 with 4 hearts. I tend to think he can have (almost) any minimum.
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#14 User is offline   Antraxxx 

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Posted 2011-February-08, 04:49

I'm not sure I follow all of that. How can I bid NT without a stopper in their suit?
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#15 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2011-February-08, 04:53

View PostAntraxxx, on 2011-February-08, 04:49, said:

I'm not sure I follow all of that. How can I bid NT without a stopper in their suit?


Because, as a number of players have already stated, it is the bid that best describes your hand. What else did you have in mind?
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#16 User is offline   Antraxxx 

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Posted 2011-February-08, 05:09

I was taught to never ever bid NT without a stopper in the opponents' suit(s). It made a lot of sense at the time (clearly you don't want to end up in an NT game without a stopper in the suit they're very likely to lead, right?). I really and honestly don't understand how opener can tell whether or not my NT includes a stopper or not (and thus know when to avoid 3NT). I have no doubt there are ways, but I never learned them.
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#17 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-February-08, 05:20

The simplest case is

1-(1)-x-p
???

suppose you hold

xxx
Kx
AKxx
QJxx

now you have 13 balanced, and your parnter promised 6+ points with 4 hearts*! what should you rebid?

2 is silly, because it should show 6 and you have just 4
2 is insane, because it shows 16+ and 5 clubs and 4 diamonds*
2 is out of this world, partner shows 4 and you raise on honour doubleton!!
2 or higher is impossible - it could be that your opponents have more combined points than your partnership!!

*I'm assuming here that you play that double showed just hearts
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#18 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-February-08, 05:22

Oh yes, this is a hand where you opened 1 with 4-4 in the minors. Several people play that, but if you don't like the example, you're free to make it xxx Kxx AKx QJxx.
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#19 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2011-February-08, 05:30

A 1NT rebid by opener when he was forced to bid should not show a stopper. The reasoning behind this is rather straightforward - in standard bidding 1m is either a real suit (5 cards, if not three suited) or a balanced hand with some cards in that minor suit. It is very healthy to filter out the balanced hands from the unbalanced hands, and the 1NT rebid by opener does just that. Note that opener might also have 18-19 balanced. In that case, jump-rebidding 2NT with no stop is not wise. However, it is very uncommon that you have 19 points and no stop in their suit. You can cuebid if you have to.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#20 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2011-February-08, 05:36

This auction is a fair bit different from 1-1-X-P:

1. They are both passed hands, their suit is almost certainly decent and you will pretty much always get a spade lead where you might have averted it before.
2. You had a chance to show your shape the round before. If you were going to bid 1NT now, you should have done it the round before.
3. Partner has had 2 opportunities to bid NT before, but hasn't. He is either unbalanced in which case you don't want to encourage NT, or he is balanced without a stop and a spade lead is marked. If he happens to be stronger and you really did have spades stopped, say he bids 2 to check, that's giving RHO the chance to double and LHO to find a club lead (say RHO overcalled on QTxxx x xx AQxxx).
4. You know a lot more about this auction than in 1-1-X-P. In the latter auction, all you really know is partner has 4 hearts and 6+ points (and not 5+ with 10+ points assuming no NFBs). Here, I don't know all the details of Antraxxx's system, but you have some inferences about the lack of a NT rebid, no raise, no jump shift, didn't bid 2 or 2 etc).

Now, admittedly it is even worse for me since "good hand with no clear direction" is often a stopperless 18-19 balanced hand meaning that NT bids really need to have the suit stopped.

Antraxxx: The reason people bid NT without a stopper isn't so much that you are just showing your shape, but they feel that anything else is a bigger lie. It's related to what is probably the biggest "debate" on BBF.
Wayne Somerville
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