[humilities]

IMPS

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I've been away fromt he game a while, is it still "standard" to play North's second Double as penalty? It was back in the day but I don't know if things have changed.

Are you sitting?

[awm]

Partner already doubled for takeout. He can't change his mind and suddenly have a stack of hearts now.

I've always played this double as "cards" -- it says that partner has quite a bit more than a minimum takeout double and would like us to take some action rather than sell to 2♥. Depending on the nature of our hand, we can pass it or pull to any suit or bid notrump again.

On our actual hand, we don't really have the heart holding for pass. Sure, we usually beat 2♥X on power, but partner will often have a singleton or small doubleton heart, and one can easily imagine the opponents going down one or even making if opener has some extra shape. I don't like 3♦ because we have a pretty nice hand (1NT for me could easily be some 6-count, and partner's extras opposite my nine adds up to a game). I'd take a shot at 3NT; risky with only one heart stop but I pretty much know where the opponents cards are and I can make opposite something like Kxxx xx AKxx AQx which is nothing special for partner.

[aguahombre]

 awm, on 2011-February-02, 10:03, said:

Partner already doubled for takeout. He can't change his mind and suddenly have a stack of hearts now.

.......(1NT for me could easily be some 6-count, and partner's extras opposite my nine adds up to a game). I'd take a shot at 3NT; risky with only one heart stop but I pretty much know where the opponents cards are and I can make opposite something like Kxxx xx AKxx AQx which is nothing special for partner.

Given the premise (1NT could be a ratty 6-count), everything Adam writes is perfect. But, if the premise is that 1NT showed 8-10 with no particular suit interest, then the second double would become a strong penalty suggestion ---extra defense for the previous double. This would not be changing the nature of the first double ---but rather an adjustment considering the rest of the auction.

[mtvesuvius]

Yeah, card showing seems about right. You can definitely convert if you wish, but the double just says that he has extras.

[peachy]

It cannot be a penalty double if the first double was a takeout double. The second double is best described as "some extra values" with willingness to compete further and the extra values could be in the form of perfect takeout shape so the advancer should consider that possibility. The 1NT bidder nearly never leaves the Dbl in for penalty but it can happen.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I agree with the others... that 2nd DBL is still T/O ... with extras.

[humilities]

THanks for the input all.

 awm, on 2011-February-02, 10:03, said:

Partner already doubled for takeout. He can't change his mind and suddenly have a stack of hearts now.

Perhaps I should have been more specific. I meant "strongly penalty oriented" as obviously you do not have a Heart stack

This was the hand:

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Back in the day .. the second double after a 1NT bid was primarily headhunting .. however today my partner took it for takeout - as did this poll. When did this change? And I'm curious .. why? Once partner bids 1NT, at what point do you get to collect 800 when they continue to bid foolishly? Or nowadays are you allowed to bid with impunity even when the opponents bid NT after you?

[the hog]

 humilities, on 2011-February-02, 19:09, said:

THanks for the input all.



Perhaps I should have been more specific. I meant "strongly penalty oriented" as obviously you do not have a Heart stack

This was the hand:

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Back in the day .. the second double after a 1NT bid was primarily headhunting .. however today my partner took it for takeout - as did this poll. When did this change? And I'm curious .. why? Once partner bids 1NT, at what point do you get to collect 800 when they continue to bid foolishly? Or nowadays are you allowed to bid with impunity even when the opponents bid NT after you?

As posters above have pointed out, your hand cannot miraculously change from takeout to penalty. You had a takeout x, how can it suddenly change to a hand that would double hearts for penalties? As pointed out above, you are showing a hand better than a minimum takeout. Partner can pass or bid something. By the way, I don't think this has changed over the years, but has always been thus.

[A2003]

Double is takeout and south with Balanced hand, no 5 card suit, no 4 good suit to bid, based on north showing extra value, south takes the chance to convert the double to penalty.

If West has these cards, it will make 2♥ contract. No 800 available.

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[mtvesuvius]

With a beer too if not careful!

[gordontd]

 humilities, on 2011-February-02, 19:09, said:

Once partner bids 1NT, at what point do you get to collect 800 when they continue to bid foolishly?

You get to collect 800 when you have a strong takeout double and partner has a penalty pass - which is more likely after you've made one takeout double and partner has responded 1NT, than if you both had balanced-ish hands and you had happened to make a takeout double with yours.

[Cyberyeti]

 A2003, on 2011-February-02, 21:56, said:

Double is takeout and south with Balanced hand, no 5 card suit, no 4 good suit to bid, based on north showing extra value, south takes the chance to convert the double to penalty.

If West has these cards, it will make 2♥ contract. No 800 available.

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Except he probably opened 4♥ with that.

Where you collect is where partner has a balanced 18-19 and your 1N overcall is 15-17. I think it's more useful to be able to double on 15-16 with a heart shortage than guaranteeing a heart holding, so at this vul or at teams, you need better hearts than that to pass. If opps were vul at pairs, I might attempt to take 200 against a part score.

[Lurpoa]

You definitily need a partnership agreement for this.

But a good agreement is: Double is for penalty once either of us has bid a natural notrump earlier in the auction.

The initial double could have been on a NT-hand (18-20). and 1NT promesses stop with 8-11H !

[the hog]

 Lurpoa, on 2011-February-03, 07:03, said:

You definitily need a partnership agreement for this.

But a good agreement is: Double is for penalty once either of us has bid a natural notrump earlier in the auction.

The initial double could have been on a NT-hand (18-20). and 1NT promesses stop with 8-11H !

You think this is a "good agreement"? I would suspect the frequency of this happening might be once every year or so. Further even then you mu#ight not collect as much as a making 3NT.

[Lurpoa]

 the hog, on 2011-February-03, 18:13, said:

You think this is a "good agreement"? I would suspect the frequency of this happening might be once every year or so. Further even then you mu#ight not collect as much as a making 3NT.

Well, it is a "default" agreement I like to play with my partners... It is easy to remember and it has worked well for me, but, I agree, I am "relatively" new in this game.
And I agree that this sequence is rather unprobable, but still: a light opening, and....
and indeed 3NT "might" make, but in that case they also go for four-number figure: MATCH over !!!
I do not think it is worthwile making an exception to our default, just for this case, which anyway might score.
Nevertheless, thank you for your comment, but I was aware of that....