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Bid these hands

#21 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 13:40

View PostCyberyeti, on 2011-January-17, 13:28, said:

Yes but that was a 2 count and partner will have more than that, do you expect partner to bid 4S on Axxxx, xx, xx, xxxx ? I know I don't.

This looks like an obvious game bid. Imagine some 18 hcp balanced hands opposite this hand, or a 4252 hand with 15-16 hcp.

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Even Q10xx, xx, Qx, xxxxx is a decent game. There are to my mind just too many hands where partner will not bid 4 when it's right and will bid it when it's wrong with a load of wasted club honours. 3 doesn't tell partner what he needs to know to make a sensible decision.

This is irrelevant, the only question is whether on hands where partner passes 3S we are better off in 4S or 3S. A typical such hand is a hand with 4 trumps and 6-7 hcp. Opposite such a hand game will typically be terrible.
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#22 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 15:39

View Postcherdano, on 2011-January-17, 13:40, said:

This looks like an obvious game bid. Imagine some 18 hcp balanced hands opposite this hand, or a 4252 hand with 15-16 hcp.


This is irrelevant, the only question is whether on hands where partner passes 3S we are better off in 4S or 3S. A typical such hand is a hand with 4 trumps and 6-7 hcp. Opposite such a hand game will typically be terrible.


This shows a lack of understanding about the dynamics at the Bridge table.
When you have a strong distributional hand with a low point count like here and a fit, and opponents pass throughout, you can bet that your partner will not have a minimum one level response. Your partner will never pass 3S, apart from the fact that he would not know when pass would be right. The question is not whether to bid game but when to stop in game.
When most of your strength is distributional and Axxxxx,x,Qx,xxxx will give you excellent play not for game but slam, it is imperative that you tell your partner what is needed for slam and what is useless.

Those who want to be able to stop in 3 are in the wrong forum. There is another forum for bright beginners and intermediate Bridge players.

Rainer Herrmann
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#23 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 19:05

View Postrhm, on 2011-January-17, 15:39, said:

This shows a lack of understanding about the dynamics at the Bridge table.
When you have a strong distributional hand with a low point count like here and a fit, and opponents pass throughout, you can bet that your partner will not have a minimum one level response. Your partner will never pass 3S, apart from the fact that he would not know when pass would be right. The question is not whether to bid game but when to stop in game.
When most of your strength is distributional and Axxxxx,x,Qx,xxxx will give you excellent play not for game but slam, it is imperative that you tell your partner what is needed for slam and what is useless.

Those who want to be able to stop in 3 are in the wrong forum. There is another forum for bright beginners and intermediate Bridge players.

Rainer Herrmann


I agree with everything u say about 3 but splinter is almost as interesting as 3 bid to me. Axxx Axx xxx Axx will also love his hand after splinter, there is a good chance u may go down at 5 level. But with the original hand, 5 NT response will get u to 6 level anyway. AQxx Axx xxx Axx will you bid grand ? I think you should because u are not gonna make this 6. this makes either 5 or 7. AQTxxx Qx Jx Axx or AQTxx Qx Jx xxxx will he be able to stop b4 slam vs a splinter ? Because if u stop or get into control cue with these there are other deals that can screw u...Splinter in this hand works ok, but splinter with an AK 6th + void + 3 losers in obvious lead suit is beyond my taste. But i am probably a non bright beginner :P

It seems to me that your suggested auctions are totally a result of seeing both hands. Why do i think that ? You ask keycards with 4 NT and knowing that partner has ace u dont even let the guy show his void, where it could have mattered in a different hand if pd didnt hold it.
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#24 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2011-January-18, 03:05

View PostMrAce, on 2011-January-17, 19:05, said:

I agree with everything u say about 3 but splinter is almost as interesting as 3 bid to me. Axxx Axx xxx Axx will also love his hand after splinter, there is a good chance u may go down at 5 level.

After the sequence 1 -- 1 -- 4 in 9 out of ten cases opener longest suit will be and your holding is the worst one you can have. I admit I will probably still end up in 6, a bad contract but only if the defense finds the lead.

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But with the original hand, 5 NT response will get u to 6 level anyway.

Where are we here? In an "expert" (?) forum, where suddenly everybody is happy to reach the six level? I would feel embarrassed stopping in six.

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AQxx Axx xxx Axx will you bid grand ? I think you should because u are not gonna make this 6. this makes either 5 or 7.

No, I would be in 6. These 5 or 7 issues are nice in print but rarely detectable with any confidence in the bidding.

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AQTxxx Qx Jx Axx or AQTxx Qx Jx xxxx will he be able to stop b4 slam vs a splinter ?

I think on the first one responder should bid 5, which conventionally asks for a control in the unbid suit, . Opener passes. So I do not stop in 4, but I play a good contract anyway. On the second one responder should simply bid 4, he is simply too weak to go beyond 4.

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Because if u stop or get into control cue with these there are other deals that can screw u...Splinter in this hand works ok, but splinter with an AK 6th + void + 3 losers in obvious lead suit is beyond my taste. But i am probably a non bright beginner :P

When opener splinters in response to partner's new suit bid, he does not promise a three suiter. Far more likely opener has a good suit as source of tricks. In fact if opener has the worst possible holding 4=4=4=1, he must be substantially stronger to splinter than when he has a good suit he opened in. This is not the same as splintering directly over an opening bid. In response to an opening bid, if responder has a good side suit, he first shows this, before he splinters. But splinters remain by far the best way to judge whether 2 hands fit or not. If responder holds AQTx, x,QJx, Jxxxx slam is lay-down barring a first round ruff or a 5-0 trump break. No way to find this unless opener splinters.

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It seems to me that your suggested auctions are totally a result of seeing both hands. Why do i think that ? You ask keycards with 4 NT and knowing that partner has ace u dont even let the guy show his void, where it could have mattered in a different hand if pd didnt hold it.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. You need to improve your hand evaluation. I gave two possible sequences and I think you are referring to

1 1
4 4
4 4NT
5 7

4: Splinter
4: Control bid, interested in slam.
4: After the splinter I have nothing extra which justifies bypassing 4
4NT (RKB by responder, who holds the ace): What is wrong with that?
If you have some way to show 2 key-cards and the void in clubs over 4NT, that is fine with me.
5: 2 key cards.
Now if responder would hold the same hand but without the ace, he would not bid 6 he would continue with 5NT, asking for additional features and opener would bid 6 showing the void and responder would then bid 7.

What is hindsight here?

Rainer Herrmann
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#25 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2011-January-18, 11:15

Rhm's post disqualifies itself from serious discussion, but I do want to reply to a particular point: if partner always never passes our 3S bid, then it's even more obviously right to bid 3S rather than to splinter. Bidding slams does not become more accurate if you make a splinter both with a 4351 20-count and a 4360 12-count. Play a shortness asking bid over the 3S raise if you want to show shortness with hands like the one we have here, or splinter over partner's 3NT slam try, but don't overload the splinter.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#26 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 06:47

View Postrhm, on 2011-January-18, 03:05, said:

After the sequence 1 -- 1 -- 4 in 9 out of ten cases opener longest suit will be and your holding is the worst one you can have. I admit I will probably still end up in 6, a bad contract but only if the defense finds the lead.


My suit is irelevant when pd asks me if i have wasted hcps in splinter suit. Perhaps you shd check the definition of splinter bid. But regardless, even if i had the best holding in pd's minor, if partner ABUSED the convention we will end up in dead end. Watch this;

KJxx
Jxx
void
AKxxxx

I think you will open 1 and bid 4 over 1 response.

Pd has a good holding in your minor now. Guess what will he bid now ? ;) 5 to ask control and give up on keycards incase partner ABUSED the splinter again ?

AQxx
xxx
Axx
QJx



View Postrhm, on 2011-January-18, 03:05, said:


I think on the first one responder should bid 5, which conventionally asks for a control in the unbid suit, . Opener passes. So I do not stop in 4, but I play a good contract anyway. On the second one responder should simply bid 4, he is simply too weak to go beyond 4.


I think u just invented the solution to the first one, but if partner is known to ABUSE the splinter, i think it is ok to use it and skip unimportant things like keycards and trump Q and all... 2nd one tells me u forgot which hand types splinter actually targets. If you abuse a convention thats what happens. U forget the real meaning of it. In which planet AQTxx Qx Jx xxxx can be considered TOO WEAK to stop at 4 when pd has 4441 or 4351 stiff and 17+ hcp ?? Construct me a hand that we cant make slam vs a normal splinter, not a RAINER HERRMAN splinter, if we have enough keycards.



View Postrhm, on 2011-January-18, 03:05, said:


When opener splinters in response to partner's new suit bid, he does not promise a three suiter. Far more likely opener has a good suit as source of tricks. In fact if opener has the worst possible holding 4=4=4=1, he must be substantially stronger to splinter than when he has a good suit he opened in. This is not the same as splintering directly over an opening bid. In response to an opening bid, if responder has a good side suit, he first shows this, before he splinters. But splinters remain by far the best way to judge whether 2 hands fit or not. If responder holds AQTx, x,QJx, Jxxxx slam is lay-down barring a first round ruff or a 5-0 trump break. No way to find this unless opener splinters.


You are in your own world again on this one, after 1m--1M opener's shape is 4441 or 4351. But if you dont wanna take the word of a bright beginner like me, i think you should google and check if anyone used any other shape than 4441 or 4351 in their examples to show what splinter by opener should look like. You are confusing this with the splinters that are made after a 2/1 response.

View Postrhm, on 2011-January-18, 03:05, said:



Sorry, but this is nonsense. You need to improve your hand evaluation. I gave two possible sequences and I think you are referring to

1 1
4 4
4 4NT
5 7

4: Splinter
4: Control bid, interested in slam.
4: After the splinter I have nothing extra which justifies bypassing 4
4NT (RKB by responder, who holds the ace): What is wrong with that?
If you have some way to show 2 key-cards and the void in clubs over 4NT, that is fine with me.
5: 2 key cards.
Now if responder would hold the same hand but without the ace, he would not bid 6 he would continue with 5NT, asking for additional features and opener would bid 6 showing the void and responder would then bid 7.

What is hindsight here?

Rainer Herrmann



Oh now u changed your bid ? :D Because that wasnt the auction u suggested !!! Here is what u posted ;) It is ok, this one you just made up is also interesting. If responder did not have ace he would bid 5 nt huh ? WOW WOW WOW. Thats the first time i saw someone asking 5NT with a keycard missing in EXPERT/ADVANCED section! But the problem with that Mr.Herrmann, a bright beginner may take it as all keycards are there and may choose to bid grandslam with solid :D The more you talk the more interesting it gets Mr. Hermann. I think i have a lot to learn from you. I am really trying to improve my level from a bright beginner to an intermediate player and as u said i need to improve my "hand evaluation" too :D


View Postrhm, on 2011-January-17, 04:01, said:

-----1
1 4
4 4
4NT 5
7

or

-----1
1 4
5 5 voidwood --> 1 keycard outside
7

Rainer Herrmann


By the way, isn't something weird in those auctions ? (one in the previous quote and the first one in the last quote) Look at responder, cues after splinter bid, and partner says he has no extras, but he still asks 4 NT and then bids grandslam! If u are going to bid 4NT and bid 7 regardless of if pd has extras or not, why on earth did you feel the necesitty of cueing after splinter ? 4 NT after a cue sexier on the print ? Or are you trying to give as much info as you can to the opponents incase it may help them during defense as an EXPERT but GENTLE opponent ? B) Please enlighten us the bright beginners Mr. Herrmann !
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#27 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 07:03

Axxxx, xx, xx, xxxx

View Postcherdano, on 2011-January-17, 13:40, said:

This looks like an obvious game bid. Imagine some 18 hcp balanced hands opposite this hand, or a 4252 hand with 15-16 hcp.


If you think an 18 count is typical here, you're in the wrong forum or you don't bid 3 anything like enough. Admittedly you're probably playing a strong no trump which I'm not but balanced 16 or 4351 13 are much more typical where I come from, so it gets passed much more often.

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This is irrelevant, the only question is whether on hands where partner passes 3S we are better off in 4S or 3S. A typical such hand is a hand with 4 trumps and 6-7 hcp. Opposite such a hand game will typically be terrible.


Even AQ10x, xxx, xx, xxxx is far from the worst game ever and that's a pretty horrible hand. Also see above, I'd pass 3 with more hands than you would, particularly something like Qxxx, Qxx, Qx, Qxxx (quack laden 8-9 with a fair bit in the suits partner doesn't hold) which will make a decent amount of the time. Any 5-6 count with 5 spades and no singleton is likely to be passed when game is likely to be good.
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#28 User is offline   robertb 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 07:03

E W
1S (canape) 2C (any game force)
3D (6+ diamonds, 4 spades) 3S
4D 4NT
5NT 7S
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#29 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 07:16

1D = 10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal
... 1H = INV+ relay
1N = 4+ spades
... 2C = GF relay
2D = min, 4 spades
... 2H = relay
3H = 4=3=6=0
... 3S = relay
4D = 4 controls
... 4H = relay
5C = spade/diamond controls, no heart control
... 7S (min hand opposite is Kxxx/xxx/AKxxxx/-)
(-: Zel :-)

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#30 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 07:51

It is a very common style to raise to 3M with 18-19 balanced (playing strong notrump). If you are ignorant about that, maybe you shouldn't tell other posters in which forum they should be posting.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#31 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 09:22

I disagree with everybody but I disagree with cherdano less. Reminds me of animal farm.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#32 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 09:53

I want to see a cage match in th octagon with Cherdano / Mr. Ace against Cyberyeti / RHM.

OK, I'll settle for a bidding match.
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#33 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 10:33

View PostPhil, on 2011-January-19, 09:53, said:

I want to see a cage match in th octagon with Cherdano / Mr. Ace against Cyberyeti / RHM.

OK, I'll settle for a bidding match.


I think you should just settle with the lessons u learnt from that topic. Incase u missed them, take a pen and paper and write these...

1- When opener makes a splinter, do NOT look at the splinter suit, look at opener's minor suit and accept slam try if u have help.

2-1--1--4--5 asks for control incase pd made a funny splinter. Dont bother with silly things like keycards.

3-If u ask aces and then bid 5 NT, u may still be 1 keycard off. Pd should focus on if he has a void matching to the missing Ace, instead of getting excited about silly things like solid suit of his own or kings.

4-Do not show your void, when partner has the ace of that suit. Just wait untill he asks with 5 NT, then show it. Of course pd may not ask 5 NT all the time and sign off thinking 1 keycard + trump Q missing, BUT i am sure Mr. Herrmann has an explenation about how to handle this unimportant issue.

5-Make sure to make a cue just b4 u ask RKCB, even when u have all the controls and going to bid 4 NT regardless of his sign off. It is for bright beginners and intermediate players to just bid 4 NT without a cue.

By the way Phil, are u a bright beginner or an intermediate ? A/E section and we have people who raises 1 to 2, people who raises to 3, people who raises to 4, and Mr.Herrmann who makes splinter bid. Since my original suggestion was 4 or 4, i think i am the intermediate who needs to work on his hand evaluation and u are the bright beginner and Adam with his 2 bid is the non bright beginner.

I knew it was about time, someone would tell u and Adam that u are in the wrong forum !!! :P
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#34 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 10:36

View PostPhil, on 2011-January-19, 09:53, said:

I want to see a cage match in th octagon with Cherdano / Mr. Ace against Cyberyeti / RHM.

OK, I'll settle for a bidding match.

This can't take place as I have been banned to the B/I room, where world class experts like rhm drop by occasionally, but never long enough to hold a bidding match - they would just be overwhelmed by all the B/Is begging them for their advice.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#35 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 10:46

View Postcherdano, on 2011-January-19, 10:36, said:

This can't take place as I have been banned to the B/I room, where world class experts like rhm drop by occasionally, but never long enough to hold a bidding match - they would just be overwhelmed by all the B/Is begging them for their advice.


:D
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#36 User is offline   dboxley 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 11:41

View PostFree, on 2011-January-17, 07:11, said:

Immediately voidwooding with opener is a recipe for disaster. You have a possible 3 losers and you know only about an 8 card fit. The only good thing is that you're way below 4.

I'd start:
1-1 (nat ; nat)
4-4NT (<16HCP but good offensive hand, usually 6-4 ; Blacky)
5NT-7? (2 with a void ; I guess we can bid grand now)


I wouldn't mind bidding 4S with this hand if this is what it shows, but then how do you show KQJx KQx AKJx xx ?
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#37 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 11:49

Yes Timo, I feel like I am walking on eggshells when I enter the A/E.

On the subject hand, I would bid 2. Hell, with an eleven count (did I add that up right?) I don't even have an opening bid, and I can't imagine doing anything more. If we miss game, then its partner's fault, or we were just plain unlucky. Forcing to game with an 11 count is truly the domain of the expert. I can only hope that I will be that good someday, but I doubt it and am seriously thinking about taking up Sudoku.

If my partner bid something like 1[cl-1 - 4 - 5 my first thought would be that they pulled the wrong card from the bidding box. I would take a lot of time and look my partner in the eye and make sure that they really meant 5. And then I would be thinking about those letters to the editor in the ACBL bulletin where someone from South Dakota suggests that there should be some sort of bonus more than a game but less than a slam for bidding five of a major and making it and whether or not that was made part of the game recently.

Skipping Key Card? Jeez, I just learned RKC, and now I have to ignore it? I spend so much time with my new partners talking about the difference between 0314 and 1430 - its so darn confusing. Is there any doubt why bridge is in trouble? Rduran1216 captures my thoughts perfectly when he says:

Quote

Seriously, you guys wonder why bridge is dying, when 75% of the good players are stuck up assholes all the time.



There's this guy who teaches bridge on Friday mornings in my bridge club in Dana Point, CA and he's always telling us that 5N not only guarantees possession of all the keys, but it also consults partner on whether or not to bid 7. Now I'm totally confused and I need ask him about these expert views that he apparently doesn't have a clue about. It's no wonder why he doesn't win the GNT every year. I'm starting to doubt his qualifications, but I'm sure I will impress him.

I also need to ask him about the "cue before RKC idea", but I think he'd probably agree with RHM, because he's always trying to get us to avoid jumping to RKC when we can exchange information first that may be helpful for our evaluation later on, even though I have a hard enough time counting key cards in the first place. Hell, the only time I ever bid a grand was when I miscounted key cards and bid a grand on a finesse, my poor partner was about to play for the drop with three cards out, but lucky for us the king of trumps was onside singleton.

In 1980, one of my bridge partners lent me Reese's "Bridge for Bright Beginners". Sadly to say, I'm only on page 47 :(.
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#38 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 11:56

Phil > Han?

Seriously though, nice post.
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#39 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 12:40

View Postcherdano, on 2011-January-19, 07:51, said:

It is a very common style to raise to 3M with 18-19 balanced (playing strong notrump). If you are ignorant about that, maybe you shouldn't tell other posters in which forum they should be posting.

Yes, and I said that I don't play a strong no trump, but the question was posed in the open forum to bid these hands with no statement of system.

While 18-19 balanced is possible (and I would never ever bid 3 with anything other than the most revolting 19 in the known universe), it's much less common than a more distributional weaker hand.

Please bring on the cage match says the 280 pound ex nose tackle :)

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I wouldn't mind bidding 4S with this hand if this is what it shows, but then how do you show KQJx KQx AKJx xx ?


We either open 2N (with all the touching honours, I'd treat that one as 20) or rebid 3N with that. We play a wide range strong 1N rebid (in a weak no trump, 4 card majors context) and artificial GF 2N rebid to deal with the unbalanced hands, so 3N is essantially a free bid, which we use as 4432/4441 with support good 18-19 (or even a bit better if 4441).
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#40 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-January-19, 18:19

View Postdboxley, on 2011-January-19, 11:41, said:

I wouldn't mind bidding 4S with this hand if this is what it shows, but then how do you show KQJx KQx AKJx xx ?



Yes on agreement it shows 6-4 hand with decent minor suit and not more than 15 hcp. A very common treatment in europe.

Axxx x AKxxxx xx

Kxxx Kx AKxxxx x etc etc. Basically minimum hand but 6-4 with good controls.

And also 1--1
4 shows same type of hand, except this time is solid 4252 and no 1st 2nd round control in unbid suits. A picture hand.

Now having said that, if u decide to play this treatment, then u need to play 2 NT rebid by opener as forcing, including 4 card support. If u are not willing to do that, u can take out the picture hand and play 1m--1M--4m = 6-4 hands, that can not stand a pass if u bid 2 or 3.

I think bidding 2 with the hand in this topic is seeing those 2 hands equal.

KJxx Jxx AKx xxx

KJxx Jxx AKxxxx void.

With all due respect, this is not acceptable :) Hands opening a minor and raising pd's major to 2 level SHOULD NOT have such a huge contrast between them.

View PostPhil, on 2011-January-19, 11:49, said:



I also need to ask him about the "cue before RKC idea", but I think he'd probably agree with RHM, because he's always trying to get us to avoid jumping to RKC when we can exchange information first that may be helpful for our evaluation later on,



This would make sense, if we didnt already exchange info that is needed. Whats the purpose of exchanging info, if we are going to go head and bid grand AFTER pd says "i have no info to exchange" ? :)
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