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Bid these hands

#1 User is offline   dboxley 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 01:16

IMPs, E deals

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#2 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 03:02

1-1
3-4
4-4
5-6

Also:
1-1
3-5(exclusion KC?)
5-6
7

But that's a fantasy. I think 6 should be good enough.

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#3 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 04:01

-----1
1 4
4 4
4NT 5
7

or

-----1
1 4
5 5 voidwood --> 1 keycard outside
7

Rainer Herrmann
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#4 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 07:11

Immediately voidwooding with opener is a recipe for disaster. You have a possible 3 losers and you know only about an 8 card fit. The only good thing is that you're way below 4.

I'd start:
1-1 (nat ; nat)
4-4NT (<16HCP but good offensive hand, usually 6-4 ; Blacky)
5NT-7? (2 with a void ; I guess we can bid grand now)
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#5 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 07:21

Interesting you guys suggest voidwood, but what makes the hand a good grand is A and K .

Anyway, i would start neither with 3 nor 4 splinter with East hand. I also don't like cueing in pd's suit with stiff or void by west.

1--1
4 or 4 whichever shows 6-4 shape and decent suit in your system.
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#6 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 07:40

View PostFree, on 2011-January-17, 07:11, said:

Immediately voidwooding with opener is a recipe for disaster. You have a possible 3 losers and you know only about an 8 card fit. The only good thing is that you're way below 4.

I'd start:
1-1 (nat ; nat)
4-4NT (<16HCP but good offensive hand, usually 6-4 ; Blacky)
5NT-7? (2 with a void ; I guess we can bid grand now)


What would you bid if response to blacky was 5 ? Lets say something like KQJx x AKxxxx xx :P And even when the response is 5 NT, do you really wanna be in grand if he holds KJxx Qxx AQJTxx void. Perhaps we do but it wont be a laydown grand then :) Not likely but possible KJxx void AKJxxx xxx ?

I know i sound pessimistic but sometimes when u have a void and when i have a void, i wouldnt be surprised when they have a void somewhere too. So i think K or K also needed to make this a decent grandslam bid. Even with 2-1 , without K we have a lot of work to do during the play. Heck, even with the K it is still not a grand where u claim after the lead.
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#7 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 08:31

View Postdboxley, on 2011-January-17, 01:16, said:

IMPs, E deals



West  East
-          1D
1S       4D! ( 4s/6d, CWNN )
6S
Don Stenmark
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#8 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 08:35

View PostMrAce, on 2011-January-17, 07:40, said:

What would you bid if response to blacky was 5 ? Lets say something like KQJx x AKxxxx xx :P And even when the response is 5 NT, do you really wanna be in grand if he holds KJxx Qxx AQJTxx void. Perhaps we do but it wont be a laydown grand then :) Not likely but possible KJxx void AKJxxx xxx ?

The first example is possible indeed, then at least it's still on finesse so we might get away with it.

The second example isn't possible, that hand is not offensive enough for us (both suits contain finesses).

Responder looks at A, so opener should have AKxxxx or better to bid 4. This means the only danger comes from the suit, like your first example illustrates. But there's no good way to find that except bidding 6 after 5NT. So ok, if we want extra insurrance, we bid 6 first before bidding grand. If opener shows a void we can signoff in 6.
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#9 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 08:54

View PostFree, on 2011-January-17, 07:11, said:

Immediately voidwooding with opener is a recipe for disaster. You have a possible 3 losers and you know only about an 8 card fit. The only good thing is that you're way below 4.

I'd start:
1-1 (nat ; nat)
4-4NT (<16HCP but good offensive hand, usually 6-4 ; Blacky)
5NT-7? (2 with a void ; I guess we can bid grand now)


Not opener is voidwooding, responder is, by bidding 5.

Rainer Herrmann
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#10 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 09:09

View PostMrAce, on 2011-January-17, 07:21, said:

Interesting you guys suggest voidwood, but what makes the hand a good grand is A and K .

And where do you suggest are opener's values for splintering on the second round?
Once opener admits to the king, it is almost impossible to construct a 4 splinter which will not deliver an excellent play for the grand.

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#11 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 09:27

Not sure where I'd land, but just blasting RKC with responder after a raise doesn't seem that unreasonable, after something like:

As a side note I don't think opener is strong enough for 4, so I would probably have something like this:

1 - 1
2 - 4N
5N - 7 [2 with a useful void; Punt]

If opener bid 4:
1 - 1
4 - 4NT [Overbid; RKC, no reason to exclude diamonds since the A looks useful as well.]
5NT - 7 [2 with a useful void; Punt]

A lot of variables here, responder could splinter after 2, and poor opener would be kinda stuck. Would get to 7 anyway as long as opener shows the void.
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 09:40

Does everybody consider this a routine splinter ? I'd normally want a bit more than that in the way of high cards.

I'd prob bid as follows: (note that in my system, 1x-1M-2N is GF unbalanced often with support so 1x-1M-4M is shape not cards, also 1-1-4 is specifically a void, but better than this)

1-1-4-5-5-5-5-5N-6-?

Not sure if 6 or 7 would be bid now. It seems likely partner has K?xx, AK?xxx(x) and 2-3 random smallish cards in the other suits. Grand may well be good but not certain.
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#13 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 10:38

Forcing to game with opener's hand is an overbid. If partner has A and Q, he should already accept a game invitation, and game is still bad! It doesn't help our slam exploration either if we bid 4 both with a 4360 12-count and a 4351 20-count.
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#14 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 10:50

Agree with Cherdano. 3 is plenty with the 4360.
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#15 User is offline   mohitz 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 11:03

I played this hand! Was playing with a beginner friend who judged extremely well to bid 3 over which i bid a boring 6. :)
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#16 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 11:10

View PostPhil, on 2011-January-17, 10:50, said:

Agree with Cherdano. 3 is plenty with the 4360.

Why, Q10xxx, xx, xx, xxxx is probably enough for game to have a decent chance.
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#17 User is offline   dboxley 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 11:51

View PostCyberyeti, on 2011-January-17, 11:10, said:

Why, Q10xxx, xx, xx, xxxx is probably enough for game to have a decent chance.

I also agree with Cherdano, especially his point that you have to have a way to differentiate between 'gambling, preemptive' splinters and real ones. With the given hand repeated club leads would make it depend on a trump split and a diamond split.
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#18 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 12:35

View PostCyberyeti, on 2011-January-17, 11:10, said:

Why, Q10xxx, xx, xx, xxxx is probably enough for game to have a decent chance.

There are two points in reply to that. First of all, as dboxley said, against good defense you actually need a 2-2 spade split and a 3-2 diamond split. (Club lead or heart lead and club switch.)
The second point is that obviously game will be excellent opposite most responding hands with 5 spades. But most hands with 5 spades will bid 4 over 3 anyway. And if partner has only 4 spades, he needs a couple of fitting honors for game to be good; if he passes 3 and has only 4 spades, then game will almost always be terrible.
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#19 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 13:28

View Postcherdano, on 2011-January-17, 12:35, said:

There are two points in reply to that. First of all, as dboxley said, against good defense you actually need a 2-2 spade split and a 3-2 diamond split. (Club lead or heart lead and club switch.)
The second point is that obviously game will be excellent opposite most responding hands with 5 spades. But most hands with 5 spades will bid 4 over 3 anyway. And if partner has only 4 spades, he needs a couple of fitting honors for game to be good; if he passes 3 and has only 4 spades, then game will almost always be terrible.

Yes but that was a 2 count and partner will have more than that, do you expect partner to bid 4S on Axxxx, xx, xx, xxxx ? I know I don't.

I was fully aware of what 4 required on the repeated club leads, but showing it still had play.

Even Q10xx, xx, Qx, xxxxx is a decent game. There are to my mind just too many hands where partner will not bid 4 when it's right and will bid it when it's wrong with a load of wasted club honours. 3 doesn't tell partner what he needs to know to make a sensible decision.
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#20 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2011-January-17, 13:30

my first though was to reproduce Free's auction, maybe not showing the void on the way since it will be undisclosed, but it is hard to be unbiased when you knwo both hands.
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