[the_dude]

IMPS, no opposition bidding

---

How would you bid the South hand with a new partnership .. generic 2/1 with Inverted minors and 2way checkback. How would it go with your favorite partner?

[mike777]

1c=1d
1nt=3nt
p

[awm]

Elianna and I would bid:

1♣ - 3NT(1) - Pass

(1) about 16-18, balanced

Of course, we play a forcing 2NT (about 13-15, or 19+) so our 3NT can show this mildly annoying point range.

Otherwise (playing 2/1 and Walsh) the mike777 auction seems okay.

[JLOGIC]

Having to bid 3N systemically with this hand doesn't seem very good, we are prime with good support for partner and only one stopper in each major. This hand is a lot different than AQx AQx AQx xxxx or something.

Partner could just have something like J AJxx Kxx Kxxxx where 3N is on a heart finesse and 6C is laydown, or something like xx Qxx AKx Kxxxx or Kx Axxx Kxx Kxxx where 6C is laydown or very good and partner will not bid.

Yes those hands are not all that likely but I don't see why we just have to pay off to them when we have so much room between 1C and 3N.

If you play inverted minors I would start with that, generally I would start with 1D with this shape if I am not slammish opposite a weak NT hand type, or 2C if I am slammish. Playing standard inverted minors all auctions are pretty hopeless but:

1C 2C
2D 2N
3N

seems fine. At the very least after 1C-2C we will find out when partner has a stiff major which is good, and possibly get to slam opposite the right weak NTs (esp those with 5 clubs). We will also rightside the contract (if partner bids NT its probably best to play from his side, if not we will bid NT).

[nigel_k]

JLOGIC, on 2011-January-03, 19:52, said:

1C 2C
2D 2N
3N

seems fine. At the very least after 1C-2C we will find out when partner has a stiff major which is good, and possibly get to slam opposite the right weak NTs (esp those with 5 clubs). We will also rightside the contract (if partner bids NT its probably best to play from his side, if not we will bid NT).

I agree with this auction. It could get messy if you start with 1♦ and partner does not rebid 1NT. But if you are playing the old-fashioned way where inverted minors are invit+ and opener can pass responder's 2NT rebid, and you don't have any other special agreements, you probably will end up guessing at some point.

[Antraxxx]

This is probably a silly question, but why isn't opener's second bid (after 1♦) 1♠?

[mgoetze]

Antraxxx, on 2011-January-04, 05:01, said:

This is probably a silly question, but why isn't opener's second bid (after 1♦) 1♠?

People are assuming a Walsh context here, where responder would have skipped 1♦ to bid 1♠ if he had 4 spades with pretty much any non-GF hand. It is then safe for opener to rebid 1NT, as responder will either not have 4 spades, or be so strong that he can reverse into 2♠ next.

[Fluffy]

Its just a matter of identifying keycards

1♣-1♦
1NT-2♦(gf)
2♠-3♣
3♦

Now we know we are missing (and need) ♠KQ, ♥A, ♦AK and ♣K, 20 HCP and partner is 12-14 best we can achieve is a slam on 1 of 2 fineses (wich is goo), but many hopeless ones are there, in fact there are hands where we don't even make 3NT!. Its hard not to be biased by knowing the actual lay out, but I'd like to think I'd give up now and bid 3NT.

[Gerben42]

1♣ - 1♦
1♠ - 2♥
3♦ - ?

Now it gets interesting, because ♥ are a bit of a problem if there aren't 9 top tricks. To rightside the contract you would probably reach 5♦!

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mgoetze, on 2011-January-04, 05:32, said:

People are assuming a Walsh context here, where responder would have skipped 1♦ to bid 1♠ if he had 4 spades with pretty much any non-GF hand. It is then safe for opener to rebid 1NT, as responder will either not have 4 spades, or be so strong that he can reverse into 2♠ next.

I also thought the "Walsh context" would have Opener rebid 1♠ only if he had 4s and longer Cl.

[Lurpoa]

the_dude, on 2011-January-03, 16:32, said:

IMPS, no opposition bidding

---

How would you bid the South hand with a new partnership .. generic 2/1 with Inverted minors and 2way checkback. How would it go with your favorite partner?

Playing BWS2001defaults:
1♣ 2♣
2♦ 2NT
3NT

[the_dude]

Thanks for the responses. Things I was trying to resolve here:

1. Is walsh-style "assumed" for a good pickup 2/1 partnership? That helps because the auction gets bogged down if Opener has to rebid 1♠.

2. Is it "standard" these days to treat the following as forcing:

1♣-2♣
2♦-2NT

3. I used to play 1♣-2♣-2NT as a balanced non-forcing 12-13 that did not necessarily promise stoppers .. and all other 2 level bids a bit more than minimum (14+ or so) and 4+ clubs. Is this treatment still around?

[JLOGIC]

the_dude, on 2011-January-04, 10:09, said:

Thanks for the responses. Things I was trying to resolve here:

1. Is walsh-style "assumed" for a good pickup 2/1 partnership? That helps because the auction gets bogged down if Opener has to rebid 1♠.

Definitely here, might depend where you live though.

Quote

2. Is it "standard" these days to treat the following as forcing:

1♣-2♣
2♦-2NT

There was a thread recently where gnasher proposed something similar to this was NF, not sure. Usually the first (and often only) discussion with a new partner I have about inverted minors is:

1) Can we stop in 2N? If yes, is it only after 1C-2C-2N directly?

I like 1C-2C-2N as NF and 1D-2D as forcing to 3D. As I said in the other thread, I don't understand how it is playable when no matter what the bids are in between, opener or responders 2N and 3m are both non forcing. I guess he has to just keep bidding suits, with no one ever knowing if hes unbalanced or balanced or has 14 or 16 or whatever.

That said I have no idea what standard is to most people, the way I learned it was that you could never stop in 2N which seems simple enough.

Quote

3. I used to play 1♣-2♣-2NT as a balanced non-forcing 12-13 that did not necessarily promise stoppers .. and all other 2 level bids a bit more than minimum (14+ or so) and 4+ clubs. Is this treatment still around?

I have not heard of this but there are a lot of systems over inverted minors to handle this problem. I have seen the reverse a lot more (2D shows a weak NT, other bids are GF) and think it's better.

[the_dude]

JLOGIC, on 2011-January-04, 12:43, said:

Definitely here, might depend where you live though.



There was a thread recently where gnasher proposed something similar to this was NF, not sure. Usually the first (and often only) discussion with a new partner I have about inverted minors is:

1) Can we stop in 2N? If yes, is it only after 1C-2C-2N directly?

I like 1C-2C-2N as NF and 1D-2D as forcing to 3D. As I said in the other thread, I don't understand how it is playable when no matter what the bids are in between, opener or responders 2N and 3m are both non forcing. I guess he has to just keep bidding suits, with no one ever knowing if hes unbalanced or balanced or has 14 or 16 or whatever.

That said I have no idea what standard is to most people, the way I learned it was that you could never stop in 2N which seems simple enough.



I have not heard of this but there are a lot of systems over inverted minors to handle this problem. I have seen the reverse a lot more (2D shows a weak NT, other bids are GF) and think it's better.

Thanks JLogic. I've just returned from the game after a long absence and I'm having a tough time finding good documentation on Inverted Minors. The Lawrence and Hardy materials barely scratch the surface. I've seen a few other snippets and I can't tell if they are mainstream or way out there. I'm just looking to adopt something that I can play comfortably with multiple partners.

[whereagles]

I'd probably bid to a boring 3NT as most.

[Siegmund]

At the table I am leaping to 3NT, especially in a new partnership where we haven't talked about our inverted minor followups in detail. (A 1D response would be a very distant third choice behind a forcing club raise or a natural notrump call for me.)

I tend to assume Walsh style with an unknown 2/1 partner but it is not universal.

That said...

Quote

I also thought the "Walsh context" would have Opener rebid 1♠ only if he had 4s and longer Cl

...imo, no, the 1S bid *usually* shows longer clubs, but may also be used to convey the message "hearts are wide open so I don't want to offer to declare notrump," and even playing Walsh I rebid 1S on the posted opener's hand.

[mike777]

[
...imo, no, the 1S bid *usually* shows longer clubs, but may also be used to convey the message "hearts are wide open so I don't want to offer to declare notrump," and even playing Walsh I rebid 1S on the posted opener's hand.
[/quote]


Fine then you are not playing walsh then.

1s here in walsh shows 5c and 4s not 4-4 or 3-4 and wide open hearts.

[Echognome]

Apologies for the slight threadjack, but I think it's pretty interesting as to what contract you would want to be in at MP's. I would say 4♠ by south. At IMP's, 3NTS is obviously laydown.