[el mister]

Playing Acol with a pickup partner, who makes a direct overcall of opps suit at the 4 level, over my passed hand.
Is there a standard meaning for this bid? Wasnae sure what it meant, maybe both majors and a lot of strength, so thought 4♥
best in the circumstances.

---

As you can see, p held monstrous spades. Is this sort of cue commensurate with his hand? And does it imply a single ♦? Or is it just nonsense?

[mgoetze]

el mister, on 2010-December-07, 03:43, said:

Playing Acol with a pickup partner, who makes a direct overcall of opps suit at the 4 level, over my passed hand.
Is there a standard meaning for this bid?

I would take it as natural and preemptive.

el mister, on 2010-December-07, 03:43, said:

As you can see, p held monstrous spades. Is this sort of cue commensurate with his hand? And does it imply a single ♦? Or is it just nonsense?

It's just nonsense. Your partner has an easy 4♠ bid. The only alternatives are 1♠ and double.

[whereagles]

Common (1m)-4m styles are

1. natural, preemptive
2. 66 majors
3. a good 4M overcall

Pard seems to be playing option 3, but this is the sort of stuff you don't do at table without previous discussion.

[mgoetze]

whereagles, on 2010-December-07, 05:45, said:

Common (1m)-4m styles are

1. natural, preemptive
2. 66 majors
3. a good 4M overcall

Pard seems to be playing option 3, but this is the sort of stuff you don't do at table without previous discussion.

Option 3 would certainly need some definition, I mean what is the difference to doubling and then bidding 4M for instance?

But what I would like to emphasize here is that, opposite a passed hand, your chances of making a slam with this hand are nonexistent (does your partner pass with 3 aces?), and therefore there is no reason to bid anything other than 4♠, no matter what your (non)agreement about the double-jump-cue may be.

[cloa513]

mgoetze, on 2010-December-07, 06:04, said:

Option 3 would certainly need some definition, I mean what is the difference to doubling and then bidding 4M for instance?

But what I would like to emphasize here is that, opposite a passed hand, your chances of making a slam with this hand are nonexistent (does your partner pass with 3 aces?), and therefore there is no reason to bid anything other than 4♠, no matter what your (non)agreement about the double-jump-cue may be.

I'd say the point was to get indisciplined opponents to double his final contract.

[whereagles]

mgoetze, on 2010-December-07, 06:04, said:

Option 3 would certainly need some definition, I mean what is the difference to doubling and then bidding 4M for instance?

well, you could perhaps agree on

1m 4M: offensive preempt.
1m 4m: offensive preempt, with some defensive values. Similar to a namyats opening.
1m dbl + 4M: long suit, defensive values. Not at all encouraging to 5M.

[gwnn]

[ ] commensurate with his hand
[ ] implies singleton diamond
[x] nonsense

4♦ should be 6-6 in the majors.

[el mister]

Thanks all. Whilst we're on the subject, what would 1♦ 3♦ mean?

[mgoetze]

el mister, on 2010-December-07, 08:53, said:

Thanks all. Whilst we're on the subject, what would 1♦ 3♦ mean?

I think the standard meaning would be asking for a stopper, presumably with running clubs. "Natural and preemptive" is a perfectly fine alternative meaning.

[Phil]

Whole lotta diamonds.

If you want to play it as a 6M-6M, knock yourself out. Some play NAMYATS overcalls, which fits pard's hand.

9 solid spades isn't really a 4♠ call, but its hardly a misdescription either.

[mtvesuvius]

el mister, on 2010-December-07, 08:53, said:

Thanks all. Whilst we're on the subject, what would 1♦ 3♦ mean?

I play 1m-3m as Natural and Pre-emptive.
1m-4m is 6-6 in the Majors (or Pre-emptive if undiscussed)
1M-3M is a stopper ask, with a long running suit.
1M-4M is natural and to play.

[l milne]

mgoetze, on 2010-December-07, 04:13, said:

Your partner has an easy 4♠ bid. The only alternatives are 1♠ and double.

... or pass, or 1NT, or 1♥, or 2♥, 2♠, 3♠...

also, agree with gwnn, although nat preempt is my preference over 1♦ could be as short as 3 (or less)

[Zelandakh]

el mister, on 2010-December-07, 08:53, said:

Thanks all. Whilst we're on the subject, what would 1♦ 3♦ mean?

The typical meaning is to ask for a stopper, typically with running clubs. Common alternatives are natural, or a strong hand with both majors (allowing you to take this hand type out of your 2D overcall). I would expect 1m - (4m) to be an extreme hand with both majors absent any firm agreement (but would avoid making such a bid myself).

[ewleongusa]

el mister, on 2010-December-07, 03:43, said:

Playing Acol with a pickup partner, who makes a direct overcall of opps suit at the 4 level, over my passed hand.
Is there a standard meaning for this bid? Wasnae sure what it meant, maybe both majors and a lot of strength, so thought 4♥
best in the circumstances.

---

As you can see, p held monstrous spades. Is this sort of cue commensurate with his hand? And does it imply a single ♦? Or is it just nonsense?

If a bid is undiscussed and if the bid could be natural than it is natural.

Eric Leong

[FrancesHinden]

As usual, this type of unusual auction varies a lot by location.
In Acol countries, 95% of people would not have discussed this, but the idea of a direct cue bid (at any level) being natural is pretty much unknown.
The only meaning I've seen actually agreed and played is to show a good 4major overcall (which is clearly what this player meant it as). It's a long way from being 'standard' though, I'm just saying I've not seen other meanings.

I play 4m this way, and the differences in the meanings are

- immediate 4M overcall fairly random, pre-emptive
- double then bid the major very strong (double then jump to 4M doesn't really exist, double then jump to 3M is forcing showing Acol 2+ values)
- 4m overcall is a good 4M overcall i.e. one more or less expecting to make; partner is invited to bid on with values, even without a huge fit, or to double with some defence, or to move with slam interest. This gives a balance between pre-empting and getting extra values over. As others says, a bit like a NAMYATS opening.

It doesn't come up very often, but comes up more often than other suggested meanings (by contrast, I don't play NAMYATS because a natural 4m pre-empt is too useful)