[Poky]

MP. All vul.

♠ATx
♥x
♦AQTxx
♣AT9x

1♦ - Dbl - Pass - 1♥
???

P.S. Sorry for the error. The name of this poll should be "Competing with 3154"

[Free]

Always include "other", since I'll bid 3♣...

[the hog]

I think you have misread this problem Frederick.
I pass.

[jtfanclub]

Free, on Aug 26 2004, 06:55 AM, said:

Always include "other", since I'll bid 3♣...

This may be a dumb question (in fact, I know it is), but which is stronger, 2♣ or 3♣? In my regular partnerships, 3♣ is a pre-empt, while 2♣ says you still have hope for game.

[mikestar]

I vote for 2C. Partner either hasn't got spades or if he has them he is very weak. He might well have clubs and a decent hand but not good enouhg to bid 2C himself.

This may turn out poorly if partner has exactly five spades and a bad hand, but will popably do as well or better than double if he has four spades. I assume that with six+ spades and a weak hadn he would bid 2S WJS.

[inquiry]

jtfanclub, on Aug 26 2004, 11:11 AM, said:

Free, on Aug 26 2004, 06:55 AM, said:

Always include "other", since I'll bid 3♣...

This may be a dumb question (in fact, I know it is), but which is stronger, 2♣ or 3♣? In my regular partnerships, 3♣ is a pre-empt, while 2♣ says you still have hope for game.

No, for once this is not a dumb question. In fact, this is an excellent question.

The bidding situation here offers you a number of nice possibilties, especially if your partner's pass meant, I have no normal response over 1♦. The first is, what would a 2NT bid mean? Can you actually ever have a balanced hand where you would want to jump to 2NT? I mean, 1NT over 1♥ is already a very strong hand.

So if 2NT is not "natural" how do you harnsh it? 2NT has to be artificial. I would play, 2NT to show a remarkable diamond one suiter, or a club-diamond two suiter. I use 3♣ and 3♦ as bids to show really great hands, and I would use 2♣ and 2♦ just to confirm to partner I have a two suiter or nice one suiter and am willing to compete AND TO make WEST next bid (if he doesn't pass) forced on him. I would like to bid 3♦ and 3♣ when I can to take away a 3♦ and 2♦ cue-bid looking for a diamond stopper.

But why even two clubs? Look at difference between these two auctions...

1D - (x) - P - (1H)
-P - (2H)

and

1D - (x) - P - (1H)
2C - (2H)

In the first case, 2H is clearly a game try opposite a partner who could only bid 1H over the double. In the second case? 2H might be I just don't want to sell out to 2C, and I guess we can make 2H, or it might be that milder game try. They will have to guess... :-) Not to bid 2♣ here gives them a free ride.

To use 3C/3D as "preemptive" you really need to incorporate the good/bad 2NT concept. So a jump to 3♣ and 3♦ show great hands (or if you follow marshal miles ideas, the weaker hands with stronger going through 2NT).

Note over good bad 2NT, partner will bid 3♣ only with a preference for your presumed possible ♣ suit. If he likes ♦ equally or better, here he should bid 3♦.

Ben

[Fluffy]

Why is people voting for 2♣? its a quite clear double/pass bid.

I am a bidder since I love my honnors.

[pclayton]

I'm with Fluffy, this is a great dummy for spades. Pard won't compete over 2♥ with a weak 5422; not unlikely in this auction.

[paulhar]

Fluffy, on Aug 26 2004, 10:54 AM, said:

Why is people voting for 2♣?

While partner could have a weak 5-4-2-2, it's more likely IMO that 2C is going to get your side to the best contract. Let's look at some of the things that would have happened if your partner had spades:
- Bid 1S (could be 4)
- Bid 2S with a weak hand with spade length

What if partner has clubs?
- Bid 2C (probably with 6)
- Bid 3C (7?)
- Bid 1NT (needs some cards)

So, partner is bidding with most hands with spades but not most hands with clubs. Not to mention that if you DO double and partner has 4C and 4S, guess where you play! You might even play in your 4-3 spade fit when pard has 4S and 5C.

A side benefit of 2C is it guarantees a fifth diamond in this sequence to allow partner to compete to 3D with only 3. Double doesn't do that (could easily be 4-2-4-3.)

Quote

To use 3C/3D as "preemptive" you really need to incorporate the good/bad 2NT concept.

Undiscussed I would assume that 3C is a jump shift, but if a partner wanted to play 3C as preemptive, I presume he would double 1H and then correct spades to clubs (or bid 3C over 2D) to show a jump shift hand.

Undiscussed, if partner bid 2NT (1D x P 1H 2NT), I would (depending on his skill level) play him for a hand that should have bid 1NT, or if a good player, play him for "tricks"... something like: K3, AQ4, AKJ10965, Q. My decent partner bid this way in a tournament undiscussed once and I bailed to 3D with a 4-4-2-3 yarborough which was fine.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Aug 26 2004, 04:08 PM, said:

I'm with Fluffy, this is a great dummy for spades. Pard won't compete over 2♥ with a weak 5422; not unlikely in this auction.

You could bid 2♣ and when 2♥ comes back to you, you could double. Perfect description.

The immediate double could get you to some ugly 3-3 spade fit, or worse yet, if your partner decides his miserable four points and four spades is worth a little jump to 2♠... I don't mind playing spades, I don't mind suggesting spades... but if partner has FIVE of them, he is very broke, and they are unlikley to stop in 2 only hearts.

I am not terrible convinced 2♣ is right, but I think it is at least as good, and likely better than, DBL.

Ben

[pclayton]

I'm not convinced either way, either, but 2C rules out playing spades, dbl doesn't. And pard can also take a club preference anyway (he heard the 1st double too, and will be warned off playing spades with a marginal hand).

Against that, 2C does emphasize the diamond length, versus some amorphous 4144.

[Fluffy]

paulhar, on Aug 26 2004, 08:44 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Aug 26 2004, 10:54 AM, said:

Why is people voting for 2♣?

While partner could have a weak 5-4-2-2, it's more likely IMO that 2C is going to get your side to the best contract. Let's look at some of the things that would have happened if your partner had spades:
- Bid 1S (could be 4)
- Bid 2S with a weak hand with spade length

What if partner has clubs?
- Bid 2C (probably with 6)
- Bid 3C (7?)
- Bid 1NT (needs some cards)

So, partner is bidding with most hands with spades but not most hands with clubs.

He is bidding with any 8+ hand except penalty pass wich doesn´t matter, we are focusing on the weak hands, the only hand that matters you can rule out is a 6-7 HCP with 5 spades.

Quote

Not to mention that if you DO double and partner has 4C and 4S, guess where you play!  You might even play in your 4-3 spade fit when pard has 4S and 5C.

And playing on a lower level ruffing hearts with the shortness in trumps, what is the problem?.

Quote

A side benefit of 2C is it guarantees a fifth diamond in this sequence to allow partner to compete to 3D with only 3.  Double doesn't do that (could easily be 4-2-4-3.)

Disagree: you can have 4♦+5♣ & bid 2♣, playing on the 4-2 when the 5-3 avaible isn´t much fun



To make it even simpler: Double shows 3+♠, 4+♦, 3+♣ for a total of 10 cards, 2♣ shows 4+♦, 4+♣ for a total of 8 (or even 9 if you redeclare the ♣ suit with 1-3-4-5) wich bid do you think is more descriptive?

[paulhar]

Fluffy, on Aug 27 2004, 09:27 PM, said:

To make it even simpler: Double shows 3+♠, 4+♦, 3+♣ for a total of 10 cards, 2♣ shows 4+♦, 4+♣ for a total of 8 (or even 9 if you redeclare the ♣ suit with 1-3-4-5) wich bid do you think is more descriptive?

Wow! Does that mean you'd open 1NT on S-AJ106542 H-K3 D-Q4 C-AJ since that shows eight of your cards while opening 1S only shows 5? (I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm just trying to show the fallacy of that argument)

Quote

He is bidding with any 8+ hand except penalty pass wich doesn´t matter, we are focusing on the weak hands, the only hand that matters you can rule out is a 6-7 HCP with 5 spades.

Does your system allow you to bid on S-Kx H-xxxx D-xxx C-KQxx over 1D (1H) ?

[Fluffy]

paulhar, on Aug 28 2004, 07:09 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Aug 27 2004, 09:27 PM, said:

To make it even simpler: Double shows 3+♠, 4+♦, 3+♣ for a total of 10 cards, 2♣ shows 4+♦, 4+♣ for a total of 8 (or even 9 if you redeclare the ♣ suit with 1-3-4-5) wich bid do you think is more descriptive?

Wow! Does that mean you'd open 1NT on S-AJ106542 H-K3 D-Q4 C-AJ since that shows eight of your cards while opening 1S only shows 5? (I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm just trying to show the fallacy of that argument)

I would, but sadly 1NT opening denies 5 card major, so its not a proper option. If I knew that was my last call I would consider it, not because the shape, but because shows the strenght range better helping partner to decide.

Waht does Fallacy mean BTW?

Quote

Quote

He is bidding with any 8+ hand except penalty pass wich doesn´t matter, we are focusing on the weak hands, the only hand that matters you can rule out is a 6-7 HCP with 5 spades.

Does your system allow you to bid on S-Kx H-xxxx D-xxx C-KQxx over 1D (1H) ?

Yes, a clear double (some will bid 1NT but that is their problem), but that hand doesn´t matter at all, regardless of you dobling of bidding 2♣ you will find the fit.

[skorchev]

2♣

Stefan

[luke warm]

and the downsides of double are what?

i double, if pard bids 2S that's fine with me, if he bids 4S that's even better

[paulhar]

luke warm, on Sep 4 2004, 07:29 AM, said:

and the downsides of double are what?

i double, if pard bids 2S that's fine with me, if he bids 4S that's even better

Partner passed over 1D (1H) and now bids 4S over the double? And that's better? I wouldn't want to play 25 more boards with someone that bid like that...

Quote

Waht does Fallacy mean BTW?

'the fallacy of your argument' means 'what's wrong with your argument.'

[skorchev]

luke warm, on Sep 4 2004, 07:29 AM, said:

and the downsides of double are what?

i double, if pard bids 2S that's fine with me, if he bids 4S that's even better

I wonder what is this hand which first is PASS and after bid 4♠(?!).

Stefan

[luke warm]

i'm trying to remember why i said what i said about 4S, but can't... i'll write it off to a brain belch... in any case, what is the downside to double?

[Fluffy]

I think its pretty clear, double gives more info, so it will be good to help partner decide but bad if the opponents finnish playing the board, maybe because I am used of poor opponents who doesn´t count I prefer to double & help partner.

I´m kinda sure of double is the correct bid, still surprised most people voted for 2♣.

if you had 4♠ you would bid 1♠ with the same argument than bidding 2♣ now? When do you double then? never? only 3-suiters?