[pooltuna]

mfa1010, on 2010-December-13, 03:14, said:

Pass. Bidding on with 0 in his suits is punishing partner. He should be allowed to compete against their cozy 2♠ fit without a monster.

It is not really 0 since you can infer how many ♠ partner has so the KQ♣ are very useful cards. I would think that holding something like ♠none ♥KQJxx ♦KQJxx ♣Axx is reasonable

[mfa1010]

pooltuna, on 2010-December-14, 09:07, said:

It is not really 0 since you can infer how many ♠ partner has so the KQ♣ are very useful cards. I would think that holding something like ♠none ♥KQJxx ♦KQJxx ♣Axx is reasonable

I did write 0 in his suits.
It is not impossible for us to get 11 tricks in diamonds or 9 tricks in notrumps, but odds are heavily against if partner is following a normal, aggressive competitive style.
One can really get his judgment screwed up by these threads we have had lately. Completely normal passes but hey partner might have the magic cards, and if we just make the flexible bid then... Since the hands were posted in the first place, partner had the odd hand and the flexible approach was of course the winner in practice.

[cherdano]

I would pass here, for the reasons given by Michael and 655321. However, what I don't understand are the 3♠ votes; if I would bid I would certainly bid 4♦.

[JLOGIC]

Bidding on this hand is from beyond Pluto. Partner has to pass 2S with 5-5 and a spade void? What are we balancing, lol? He will almost always end up defending 2S in that case when we have close to (or equal to) half the high cards, and an 8 or 9 card diamond fit and they have a 9 card spade fit. How is that good bridge? Something is wrong with your style/system if you are forced to defend 2S under those conditions.

We don't have good honors, we have zero points in partners suits, and the ace of his very probable void. We also don't have a good fit. We also don't have a max, we bid 1N freely, we are in the middle, or closer to the bottom. We also shouldn't have a stiff heart to bid 1N, and that's not an asset when we have no support for partner's 2nd suit either. The whole point of bidding 1N immediately is to let partner know we have a little something so he can bid if he want, so that we don't have to defend 2S when it's ridiculous, and if he has a good hand he can bid a game.

If partner has a strong hand he can do something else other than 3D, as far as I'm concerned it is not remotely invitational. I would bid again on some super hand like Axxx Kx Axxx xxx but that would be the exception not the rule.

Quote

One can really get his judgment screwed up by these threads we have had lately. Completely normal passes but hey partner might have the magic cards, and if we just make the flexible bid then...

+1 billion, except this hand it's so bad to bid that I cannot even imagine a hand where it is the winning action unless partner has misbid with 3D.

Edit: OK last line was an overbid, maybe partner has solid diamonds and the CA and no heart honors at all! --- T98xx AKQJx Axx, all day.

[awm]

♠- ♥AKxxx ♦AKxxx ♣xxx seems like a decent 5♦ contract.

♠- ♥AKQxx ♦KQJxx ♣xxx is pretty cold for 5♦.

♠- ♥KQJxxx ♦AKJx ♣xxx offers decent play for 4♥.

If nine points with the best possible spade stopper for a suit contract (ace-empty) is a minimum 1NT for you, then your range for 1NT in this auction is rather different from mine (which would be about 7 to a bad 10). While I agree that if you think bidding 3♦ is normal with some random 5-5 11-count you could easily get overboard (I think 3♦ shows mild extras and wouldn't bid it with such a hand) many 5-5 11-counts still offer good play for 4♦. Are the hands above not 3♦ bids for you? Are you forcing game or jump-rebidding 4♦ opposite partner's "I have a little something, including a spade card" on these hands?

[Fluffy]

We might miss some decent games Adam, the same games we will miss passing partner's 2♦ rebid, wich is what we'd do if opponents passed.

Some of your examples are borderline with a double instead of 3♦, in fact I'd double with all of them.

[awm]

Fluffy, on 2010-December-15, 09:21, said:

We might miss some decent games Adam, the same games we will miss passing partner's 2♦ rebid, wich is what we'd do if opponents passed.

Some of your examples are borderline with a double instead of 3♦, in fact I'd double with all of them.

I think there's a fundamental philosophy difference here. The question is whether 3♦ in the given auction shows a better hand than a 2♦ rebid unobstructed. There seems to be one school of thought that it's basically automatic to rebid 3♦ with a 5-5 or a 6-4 even if holding only ten or eleven points, and that therefore the 3♦ bid isn't very different in strength than the 2♦ unobstructed (just a little more shapely). Under this school of thought the view is that while it might be that partner has a good 5-5 or 6-4, we are more likely to get overboard than find a making game by bidding on, because usually partner has a 5-5 eleven count.

The other view is that a free bid at the three-level here shows a better-than-minimum hand. This would be perhaps a king more than we would usually open (so say a 5-5 or 6-4 13-count or a 5-4 15-count). Opposite such a hand, we will very often have a game and at least should have four-level safety, and so should take another call on this hand.

Perhaps one can split the difference somehow by using double or 2NT on some hand types (although I don't think there are really good "standard" definitions for how this works).

[JLOGIC]

I also don't see why partner can be 6-4 or 5-5, that seems unplayable. What does partner do with 2-3? 6-4 can just bid 3H since our 1N bid showed 2 hearts almost always, but if it didn't want to do that surely it could start with double.

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♠- ♥KQJxxx ♦AKJx ♣xxx offers decent play for 4♥.

I mean geez what is this hand doing bidding 3D? That just seems awful.

I concede that there are some specific 5-5s that make 5D better than 50/50. However:

Quote

♠- ♥AKQxx ♦KQJxx ♣xxx is pretty cold for 5♦.

5D seems far from cold on this hand. How are you going to play it? If you don't have a line better than 4-3 hearts and 3-2 diamonds then you're still about 50/50, and it's matchpoints, and you gave partner arguably the strongest possible hand for bidding 3D.

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If nine points with the best possible spade stopper for a suit contract (ace-empty) is a minimum 1NT for you, then your range for 1NT in this auction is rather different from mine (which would be about 7 to a bad 10).

I said 9 was in the middle to me. I believe that to be completely standard. I do not believe bidding 2N over 1S with an average 10 count is a normal bid. I also do not believe that bidding 1N with all 7 counts is a normal bid.

You bring up that you have the best spade stopper for a suit contract, but you ignore that you have zero high cards in partners suits, and zero fits for partner! Very strange to me. If 9 is in the middle, since this is a terrible 9 it is closer to the bottom than the top for me.

I do not get the point of playing a system where I cannot compete when it is right to do so, when partner has almost no chance to balance. Are you really happy to pass with --- AQxxx AJxxx xxx or any of the numerous hands like that, and defend 2S? Is near-automatically losing on all hands where you opened a 5-5 hand less than a good 15 worth it to you so that your 3D bid can show invitational values, enough for partner to bid with no fit and no HCP in your suits? It seems like the priorities are getting messed up when that's the case.

[JLOGIC]

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Many 5-5 11-counts still offer good play for 4♦.

I think you are way overestimating our hands offensive power, for instance saying game is pretty much cold opposite --- AKQxx KQJxx xxx. This would all be true if we had a FOURTH diamond, but we don't. I don't really want to take my chances for 10 tricks a 5-3 fit, a stiff in partner's first suit, and no high cards in his suit, and half the deck. I'm sure if you did a simulation on how often game makes oppposite a 0553 11 count, it will be very low.

Quote

Are the hands above not 3♦ bids for you? Are you forcing game or jump-rebidding 4♦ opposite partner's "I have a little something, including a spade card" on these hands?

As usual in competitive auctions something has to give. When my options are to make a NF bid or a GF bid, I will undoubtedly have to guess sometimes, and I will undoubtedly guess wrong sometimes. This is fine with me, in those situations invitational bids are always the first to go. Everyone is bidding, everyone has shown some values, and I'm trying to compete and not sell out to 2S when it's wrong. This is such a hugely more likely scenario than me guesisng wrong on whether to bid game or not that I am still having trouble understanding your "school" of thought here. How often when everyone is bidding etc do you both have an invitational hand and guess wrong on what to do with it? How often do you have a competitive hand (ie any 5-5 10-14)? The latter seems obviously way more likely to me.

I guess what is strange to me about this hand is that even if partner had told me his 3D bid was invitational I would pass in a heart beat, especially if he could be 6-4.

[mike777]

4d

I would have thought 3d shows extras and 2nt would have been good/bad here never natural.

so with 5-5 and minimum count pard would bid 2nt forcing 3c and correct to 3d. Direct 3d shows extras.

edit after reading the posts I see many if not all play 3d as just competitive.

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on 2010-December-15, 16:03, said:

[- AKQxx KQJxx xxx]
5D seems far from cold on this hand. How are you going to play it? If you don't have a line better than 4-3 hearts and 3-2 diamonds then you're still about 50/50

Since you ask: ruff the spade lead, club to the king, three top hearts. I can probably cope with hearts 5-2 the right way around and diamonds 4-1 either way. But I agree that it's unwise to expect partner to have this hand.

[Elianna]

matmat, on 2010-December-13, 01:15, said:

hehe
this seems a true problem hand... TWO posts about it already!

I like this post.

[mtvesuvius]

OK I've been converted to a passer unless we play Good/Bad.

"I learned something today..." - Random South Park Child

[inderdeed]

Everything has probably been said in this thread, but I just like to repeat that we cannot expect partner to pass with a spade void and 5-5 in the reds, especially at MPs. If you don't play G/B or something similar than 3D is just competitive and not forward going at all.

I also really dislike 1NT. We have 5 spades and a singleton heart.