[kgr]

No hands (the real hands would not correspond to the bidding). Only a bidding:

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1♠ and 2♥ are natural (2♥ not forcing because first passed).
If you play with an expert what is 3♣, pass of South over 3♦ and 4♦?
My thoughts, more question marks means more uncertainty.
3♣=?= A good hand, either limit+ with ♥ support or asking a ♣ stop for 3NT?
Pass=??=What if North was looking for a ♣ stop, What do you bid with a ♣ stop, but missing a ♦ stop? Is Pass denying a ♣ stop and DBL asking a ♦ stop??
4♦=???=4♦ now means that 3♣ was 1st or 2nd control for ♥ and 4♦ denies 1st ♣ control (??) and gives a ♦ control

[mikeh]

I suppose it comes down to agreements, but absent agreements and playing with someone whose style is similar to mine:

3♣ is a good hand in ostensibly in support of hearts...better than a 3♥ raise but not gf (altho he may bid game over my signoff). It has nothing to do with clubs....it seems to me that thinking he has a hand for 3N if you have a club stopper is a very narrow target. Too narrow to consider devoting this call to.

If you agree that 3♣ agrees hearts, then a common style, and the one I like, is that over 3♦ the weakest action one can take is to bid 3♥. 3♣ forced to 3♥ so we are in a fp situation, and bidding 3♥ is the weakest action. Pass suggests doubt.

It seems to me that there are two ways to consider 4♦: the first is a cuebid, a slamm try in hearts. The other is a choice of games cue bid....presumably 6 good spades and 3 hearts.


I'd take it as a slam try, mostly because I don't use c.o.g. cues anywhere near as much as I suspect I should. However, no way do I assume he has a club control and a diamond control and good heart support and a 1♠ overcall.....that hand would surely double first.

Not sure what he might have...would need to see my hand to even begin to place cards, and I appreciate that that isn't going to help, given the disclaimer in the OP.

[kgr]

mikeh, on 2010-December-16, 10:35, said:

I suppose it comes down to agreements, but absent agreements and playing with someone whose style is similar to mine:

3♣ is a good hand in ostensibly in support of hearts...better than a 3♥ raise but not gf (altho he may bid game over my signoff). It has nothing to do with clubs....it seems to me that thinking he has a hand for 3N if you have a club stopper is a very narrow target. Too narrow to consider devoting this call to.

If you agree that 3♣ agrees hearts, then a common style, and the one I like, is that over 3♦ the weakest action one can take is to bid 3♥. 3♣ forced to 3♥ so we are in a fp situation, and bidding 3♥ is the weakest action. Pass suggests doubt.

It seems to me that there are two ways to consider 4♦: the first is a cuebid, a slamm try in hearts. The other is a choice of games cue bid....presumably 6 good spades and 3 hearts.

I'd take it as a slam try, mostly because I don't use c.o.g. cues anywhere near as much as I suspect I should. However, no way do I assume he has a club control and a diamond control and good heart support and a 1♠ overcall.....that hand would surely double first.

Not sure what he might have...would need to see my hand to even begin to place cards, and I appreciate that that isn't going to help, given the disclaimer in the OP.

Thanks for the answer Mike.
I don't know if it is such a small target to include stop ask in the 3♣ bid.
The problem is that you should be sure at the table that 3♣ is fit showing because otherwise the next bids would change their meaning? Like 3♥ being extra length iso simply minimal?