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an auction

#21 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-December-11, 07:20

View Postawm, on 2010-December-10, 10:21, said:

Not only would I say that this is not expert standard, but I believe this treatment (sometimes called Baze) is pretty bad...

The method I believe to be standard (without special agreement):

3oM = slammish raise of partner's major suit
etc...

Maybe we can " have our cake and eat it too " ... at a small price to pay .

>> Create an alternative way to reach suit agreement at the 3-level ( which will keep awm happy by allowing control-cuebids at a reasonable level) and still retain the salient features of "expert standard" ( as described by wyman, bucky and myself ) <<

As is usually the case the natural Club suit bid (this time at the 3-level) takes a back seat:

In general:
1NT - 2C!
2M - 3C! = puppets to 3D! for further description
3D! - ??
3H!(always) = fit for M but need Ctrl cuebids
3S!(always) = no fit, but have 5+c and 4oM


For example:
1NT - 2C!
2H - 3C!
3D! - 3H!
3S! ( Ctrl cuebid ) This is something you wouldn't have if you were to use 3S! ( over 2H ) to show a fit, slammish.

Let's take a modification of the original hand:

Q J 7 4
A 3
A K Q 7 4
6 2

1NT - 2C!
2S - 3C! ( forces 3D! for clarification )
3D! - 3H! ( Sp fit, asking for control cuebids )
4C! - 4D!
4H! - 4NT ( RKC )
etc

Yet we still have the direct 4C! = RKCG ( or 4D! if you so desire ) for the original hand as well as the splinter features, etc, etc.
The direct 3D! bid by Responder remains the same ( = no fit for M, have 4oM/5+d );
but now the "no fit for M but have 4oM/5+c " is made by an "indirect" 3S! bid .
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#22 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2010-December-12, 03:29

View PostPhil, on 2010-December-09, 20:35, said:

Why did I bid 3? That denies a spade fit and muddies up the auction.


This.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#23 User is offline   chebfarid 

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Posted 2010-December-12, 05:12

View Postthe hog, on 2010-December-10, 06:40, said:

I would bid 4C over 2S. I don't like the 3D bid either; you have effectively buried the spade fit.
Agree. Confirms fit, shows control (or, if you play them, even is a splinter) and you go on cue-bidding up the line.

Cheers
Farid
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#24 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-December-12, 09:02

Perhaps crazy, but I thought of something else for the proposed system in my post # 21.
Add "baby RKC " to take the place of the direct 4C-RKCG.

In general:
1NT - 2C!
2M - 3C! = puppets to 3D! for further description
3D! - 3NT! = RKC for M

This will free-up the direct 4C bid; we have already rendered the direct 4D bid as impotent ( and I don't recall it ever used ); and most everyone prefers the more natural splinter bids.

Sooo, for example:
1NT - 2C!
2H - ??
3S! = splinter
4C! = splinter
4D! = splinter


And for Sp as trump:
1NT - 2C!
2S - ??
3H! = splinter
4C!/4D! = / splinters


( Anxiously awaiting Zel(andakh)'s reality/sanity check for me )
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#25 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2010-December-13, 05:27

Common over 2S is:

3H = slam try in spades with some shortness. (3S asks for shortness)
4C = slam try in spades without shortness.
4D = RKC for spades.

If I remember correctly I've heard people calling this Baze, or actually reverse Baze (after Grant Baze, I think the original has 4C as RKC and 4D as balanced slam try). I wouldn't assume this without discussion btw.

After a 2H reply you can play the same, but then 3S shows the slam try with shortness.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#26 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2010-December-13, 05:36

The 24B-idea is not crazy, but I do think it is much worse than Baze. I also think that if the common structure is good (and I think Baze is good) then I will need a good reason before I try something new. What's the reason?

Here is why I think that the 24B puppet is so much worse than a natural 3C bid. Usually opener won't be able to decide on the strain. Perhaps he has decent club support, but also stoppers. Perhaps he has 3 good hearts and a so-so diamond stopper. Perhaps he has a fifth spade that he'd like to show. Perhaps he is actually worried about the spade stopper.

After a natural and GF 3C, opener has a lot of room to investigate the best strain, without bypassing 3NT. But after the 24B puppet, he won't know if partner has clubs until the next round, and there will be much less room available.

Asking for keycards with 3NT really is not important. In fact, in the original Baze structure one could ask for keycards with 4C, but in the modified structure you have to bid 4D, one step higher. If you think you might want to stop in 4M, RKC is usually not the answer. The balanced slam try and the splinters are more important.

After the 2S response, the 3C and 3D are very useful as natural, but 3H is not.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#27 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-December-13, 07:15

As the things have gone, partner has a great hand for diamonds, it is time to cuebid hearts, hear a spade cuebid from partner and bid blackwood next.
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#28 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-December-13, 08:17

View Postjillybean, on 2010-December-09, 18:42, said:

2/1, 15-17 nt, MP, dealer north, vuln = none



1N:2
2:3
4:?


I hope Jilly shows us the parent hand to see if the Grand Slam was there.
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#29 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2010-December-13, 20:21

View Posthan, on 2010-December-13, 05:36, said:

The 24B-idea is not crazy, but I do think it is much worse than Baze. I also think that if the common structure is good (and I think Baze is good) then I will need a good reason before I try something new. What's the reason?


Suppose you bid 1NT-2-2M and you want to make some sort of slam try in the major. How would you prioritize the following three things?

(1) Ability to start a cuebidding sequence at a fairly cheap level, possibly with room for serious/nonserious 3NT.
(2) Ability to bid keycard below 4M.
(3) Ability to conceal the suit of an immediate splinter, such that opener can sign off on some minimums without helping the opponents on lead.

Personally I would prioritize them in the order given above. In fact, I'd be willing to do away with (2) and (3) entirely if I can have (1). Note that Baze gives you (2) and (3) at the cost of (1) (you will be quite close to 4M before you can cuebid because the balanced slam try is 4, or 4 playing "reversed" Baze). I'd rather play a structure where 3OM is a simple slam try agreeing opener's major suit, and my jumps to the four-level are splinters rather than play Baze (I also believe this is closer to "standard" without agreement).

As for the #24B suggestion, I think it might be better to use 3...3OM/3NT to distinguish between 5-4OM responder hands with slam interest opposite a fit and hands with the same shape that are mostly worried about finding the best game, rather than having "baby keycard" (some people love their keycard, I'm personally not a fan).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#30 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2010-December-13, 20:33

View Postthe hog, on 2010-December-10, 06:40, said:

I would bid 4C over 2S. I don't like the 3D bid either; you have effectively buried the spade fit.



ditto...KISS

assuming pard rebids 4s now 4nt is clearly rkc for s not quantative.
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#31 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-December-13, 22:03

After thinking about it some more, I've thought of a few more improvements over Baze .
With Baze there is a way to show a VOID ( as well as a splinter ) when are agreed but you can only show a splinter ( stiff or void ) when are agreed.

1) With my proposal, you can show a VOID with either:

Lets take as trump:
1NT - 2C!
2H - 3S!/4C!/4D! = splinter

1NT - 2C!
2H - 3C!( puppet to 3D!)
3D! - ??
3NT! = baby RKC
4C! = Void
4D! = Void
4H! = Void

[ And this is the same structure when are trump ] .

2) There can be a slight "optimization" if you reverse the suit meanings for 3C! and 3D!
1NT - 2C
2M - ??
3C! = either (a) a fit for M and asking for cuebids or
............. ( b ) no fit, 4oM / 5+
3D! = no fit, 4oM / 5+

This will allow room for more cuebids for Opener to agree the "minor" when no Major fit.
For example:
1NT - 2C
2M - 3C!
3D! - 3S! = no M fit, 4oM / 5+ ( recall 3H! = fit for M and asks for Ctrl cuebids )
??
.. 3NT = no fit for either
.. 4C! = Ctrl cue for as trump
.........whereas there would be no room for a Ctrl cue if 3C! meant

Also:
1NT - 2C
2M - 3D! = no M fit, 4oM / 5+
??
... ( Opener has 3M or 3oM Ctrl cuebids agreeing as trump
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#32 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-December-14, 08:33

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-December-13, 08:17, said:

I hope Jilly shows us the parent hand to see if the Grand Slam was there.


Sorry, I've been busy & away, and I am only just catching up on these now.

Partners hand was AKxx,Jxxx,QJ,Axx
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#33 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-December-14, 08:52

View Postjillybean, on 2010-December-14, 08:33, said:

Sorry, I've been busy & away, and I am only just catching up on these now.

Partners hand was AKxx,Jxxx,QJ,Axx


Bingo... I'll be in 7NT via my post # 13 ( where 4C! was RKC-Gerber for Sp ) or using my new system via "baby RKC for Sp" ( post # 24 ) followed by a 3rd Rnd Ctrl ask for Diam( in either system ) ... and finding Opener with the Q J .

To be fair, the other systems mentioned by others will be there also when are agreed and Responder does the "asking" -- RKC followed by 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask in Diam.
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#34 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-December-15, 08:48

View PostTWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-December-14, 08:52, said:

View Postjillybean, on 2010-December-14, 08:33, said:

Sorry, I've been busy & away, and I am only just catching up on these now.

Partners hand was AKxx,Jxxx,QJ,Axx

Bingo... I'll be in 7NT via my post # 13 ( where 4C! was RKC-Gerber for Sp ) or using my new system via "baby RKC for Sp" ( post # 24 ) followed by a 3rd Rnd Ctrl ask for Diam( in either system ) ... and finding Opener with the Q J .

To be fair, the other systems mentioned by others will be there also when are agreed and Responder does the "asking" -- RKC followed by 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask in Diam.

Don, I have been trying for some weeks to find a post where I agree with you or I can post something constructive about your unnusual methods, but if you keep posting without thinking it gets really hard.
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#35 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-December-15, 09:59

View PostFluffy, on 2010-December-15, 08:48, said:

Don, I have been trying for some weeks to find a post where I agree with you or I can post something constructive about your unnusual methods, but if you keep posting without thinking it gets really hard.


Granted it is a new structure for "Slammish-after-Stayman" but I don't understand what you mean about me not thinking ( as slow as I am in that department ). The Baze method does NOT allow Ctrl cuebids when the Major is agreed. Mine does yet retains the Splinter options and low-level RKC as Baze.

I did sacrifice the "minor suit acceptance" ( for only one of the minors) when NO Major fit.
But awm helped me improve the structure for the "no Major fit, but agree minor" hands.
In fact I have a further improvement on that issue: exchange the 3H! and 3S! meanings:

1NT - 2C ( Stayman )
2M - 3C! = slammish, ( either agree M or NO agree M, but have 4oM/5+d ) puppets to 3D!
3D! - ??
3H!( always) = NO M fit, have 4oM/5+d
3S! ( always ) = M fit, and need Ctrl cuebids


This way there is plenty of room for ALL outside cuebids for M-fit OR Diam-fit (when NO M-fit).
This way you can determine early on if you have 2 quick losers in an outside suit, BEFORE RKC.
I knoww, I knoww, sometimes I get the feeling I am the only one here who uses ( depends on ) RKC to find out if we are off 2 key cards.

What I am guilty of is "highjacking" this post to expound on this new method.
Again, awm has helped me immensely to re-think the idea.
Perhaps it is "all wet", but I'm still "thinking" about it.

I've run a number of example hands using Richard Pavlicek's Bidding Practice Dealer.
But, I'll post some example hands using this method on the Non-Natural System Discussion Forum
in the future.
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#36 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-December-15, 12:03

What I mean by not thinking is that you are so focused on having reached the best spot that you didn't even notice that the hand posted by jillybean is not a 2 bid over 2 nor has a diamond fit, let alone to go to the 4 level.
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#37 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2010-December-15, 12:15

Also, have you ever used any of these methods successfully at the table? It may look good on paper but it's usually beyond impossible to remember something like that at the table (this coming from someone who plays 4 or 5 relay systems). Personally I'd rather bid naturally or "standard" on hands like this and get to the best spot without "Triple Inverted Half-Sister Reworked Baze with a side of Fries".
Yay for the "Ignored Users" feature!
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#38 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-December-15, 12:21

I wanna eat one of those :) even if its horrible I am ofen happy just with the fries
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#39 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-December-15, 16:02

View PostFluffy, on 2010-December-15, 12:21, said:

I wanna eat one of those :) even if its horrible I am ofen happy just with the fries


Eat this. You are right, I didn't even notice Jilly was 4-4 in the Majors, but post #1 had shown 2S over 2C.
So this is how it should have gone using my latest revised method:

Opener................Responder
A K x x............... Q J x x
J x x x................ A K
Q J..................... A K 10 7 4 2
A x x.................. 6

1NT......................... 2C
2H........................... 3C! slammish ( either Ht-fit OR NO Ht-fit but 4s/5+d ) relays to 3D!
3D! ( which is it ? ).... 3H! ( 4s/5+d ) slammish
4S*.......................... 4NT ( RKC for Sp )
5C! ( 0/3 )................. 6D! ( 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask )
7D! ( dQJ )................ 7NT ( counting 4s, 2h, 1c and 6d: even if dQJ tight )
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
*4S, Opener has to bid 4S to show he was a 4-4 in the Majors because 3S! would be a Ctrl cue--agreeing Diam at this point.
It is not a sign-off. Responder is in charge and has announced a slammish auction.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

ps. As I said before, "normal" methods would also get you to the same 7NT as long as Responder remains in charge with the "normal" 3D! GF,slammish bid over 2H showing 4s/5+d and NO 4h; and Responder makes a 3rd Rnd Ctrl bid immediately after finding the missing 3 key cards.

The difference is I have the cuebidding ( and splinters, etc) options available if Responder really had a Ht fit instead of 4 cards Sp. Baze doesn't have cuebidding options ( just splinters and low level RKCG and the ambiguous 4D! "balanced" slamtry ) . And for those who use 3oM! to agree M ( instead of announceing a splinter somewhere ), they may commence with cuebidding, but splinters are rolled into the cuebids and in that sense remain "hidden" from Opener.
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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#40 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-December-15, 16:14

View Postmtvesuvius, on 2010-December-15, 12:15, said:

It may look good on paper but ....

I'll take that as a compliment.

And none, sadly, have been tested at the table.
I would have to find a partner as crazy as I am.

I forget who said it, but it has been said that " 1NT ( and 2NT ) openers are 'slam killers' " .
I'm trying find ways to dispel that notion.
Don Stenmark
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
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