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4th suit force after a 2/1 gf bid? help needed

#1 User is offline   sceptic 

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Posted 2004-August-23, 23:53

Hi all,

1 spade pass 2 clubs pass 2 diamonds pass 2 hearts

what does the 2 heart bid show?

can it be 4 th suit forcing after a 2/1 game force bid or is it natural showing hearts?

any other suggestions?
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#2 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2004-August-24, 00:14

I would still play it as 4th suit "nebulous" in preference to natural (there may be something better than both alternatives, perhaps). The chances of a heart fit after that start are too remote to justify devoting such an important (ie low level) bid exclusively to that investigation, and it gives you something to say when you do have the "nebulous" hand (ie misfit without adequate guard in the 4th suit, a suit that you have already alerted the opponents to lead). By inference partner can then read more into other bids that you make when you DON'T bid 4th suit.
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#3 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-August-24, 06:21

Traditionally, fourth suit forcing is used to create a forcing situation and to obtain information from partner about the fourth suit. After a 2-over-1 game forcing response, anything is forcing, so the fourth suit as an "artificial force" is unnecessary (everything is forcing).

You can use the fourth suit (as opposed to bidding some number of notrump), as whatever you like. A real suit, showing half a stopper, or to show uncertainty about the strain. Or just as an attempt to get partner to bid NT so he can play it from his side, for example when you hold Axx or Ax in the fourth suit and would like to here NT from your partner when he holds Qxx in the fouth suit.

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#4 User is offline   bearmum 

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Posted 2004-August-24, 06:54

sceptic, on Aug 24 2004, 06:53 PM, said:

Hi all,

1 spade  pass  2 clubs  pass 2 diamonds  pass  2 hearts

what does the 2 heart bid show?

can it be 4 th suit forcing after a 2/1 game force bid or is it natural showing hearts?

any other suggestions?

IMO U don't need 4th suit forcing AFTER a 2/1 GF bid B)


So far opener has shown a 5 card S suit and no 4 card H suit -- and NOT good support for your C , SO I would tend to think that Partner had a pert stopper in H (NO support for your spades) and hoping you have 3NT on if you also have a stopper in H

I admit I could be TOTALLY wrong :)
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#5 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2004-August-24, 07:20

I hate to play 4sf on a focing situation, but the auction you´ve given has a small flaw about it: there 4sf is the cheapest voicee forcing, and cheapest voice forcing is nto mean to have a real meaning often, it would be quite different if the auction was:

1-2-2-3

there instead of 3 you are plenty of descriptive bids, and many epople give 2NT after this sequence a NO meaning. so 3 should be natural.
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#6 User is offline   Gerben47 

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Posted 2004-August-24, 08:47

4th suit forcing is not used to create a forcing situation, it is a forcing bid that asks partner to describe his hand (a big difference!). After a 2/1 the 4th suit means: Tell me more!

In your example situation opener can for example rebid 3NT (minimum) or 2NT (extra's) with a stopper in the 4th suit, or "nothing to say" with 2. Other bids are natural.
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2004-August-24, 23:55

Is it an idea to bid a ballanced 18-19 without fit via 4sf instead of a quanti? A quanti could be premature since opener can have extra distribution.

Anyway, opener should assume that you're looking for a stopper, and that you don't necesarilly have slam ambitions.
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#8 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2004-August-25, 00:55

sceptic, on Aug 24 2004, 12:53 AM, said:

Hi all,

1 spade pass 2 clubs pass 2 diamonds pass 2 hearts

what does the 2 heart bid show?

can it be 4 th suit forcing after a 2/1 game force bid or is it natural showing hearts?

any other suggestions?

Another one of jtfc's freaky suggestions that spam the board for no reason:

For both 2/1 and Precision (and lots of other systems too), responder generally doesn't show much of anything. He either asks, sets the forcing level (like GF), or places the contract.

The 2H bid asks you what you have in hearts, but that's not because it's fourth suit forcing. If he bid 2S, 3C, or 3D, those would also ask about your hand, emphasizing those suits. It's not like you can pass them. For that matter, don't be shocked if partner shows up with only three clubs for his 2C bid.

http://firesides.net/spectrm1.htm
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#9 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2004-August-25, 01:15

sceptic, on Aug 24 2004, 05:53 AM, said:

Hi all,

1 spade pass 2 clubs pass 2 diamonds pass 2 hearts

what does the 2 heart bid show?

can it be 4 th suit forcing after a 2/1 game force bid or is it natural showing hearts?

any other suggestions?

It is a hand without 3, without 4 and not suitable for an immediate NT bid (i.e a bad or non-existent stop, or too unbalanced).

Also, is 2/1 absolutely GF or is a repeat of the NF? If the latter, then you need some way of showing the true GF hand. This might also need to go via the fourth suit. If 2/1 is 100% GF, then the 2 bid will also deny a good 6 card suit.

So really it is a process of elimination. If you have no descriptive natural bid then bid FSF. It might or might not have a suit, but many 2425 hands will bid NT instead, so not bidding it does not deny 4 (I hope that last clause is clear, there are an awful lot of negatives in it!)

Eric
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#10 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2004-August-25, 04:03

eric's logic seems clear to me... i see a 2335 hand without a heart stopper but with the points for game... a hand that doesn't know where to play.. i imagine opener will bid 2S now, which won't help responder's decision very much...

below, jt said something about not being surprised if responder had 3 clubs (and bid a game forcing 2C)... i'd be *very* surprised if a 2/1 partner bid that way... actually i'd be shocked
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