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4N

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 17:37

Playing 2/1 & kickback

You hold K9, J862, KQ6, AT42

Partner opens 1st seat

1:1
2:2 *4sgf
3:4
4:4 *cue *cue
4N

What is partner doing bidding 4N?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

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#2 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 17:48

Well, apparently he has some slam interest but isn't prepared to take the leap. Perhaps he has a heart void and is saying, please go on unless your values are mostly wasted. Do you have any agreements as to what a cue in partner's suit shows?
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
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#3 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 17:59

View Postmgoetze, on 2010-November-17, 17:48, said:

Well, apparently he has some slam interest but isn't prepared to take the leap. Perhaps he has a heart void and is saying, please go on unless your values are mostly wasted. Do you have any agreements as to what a cue in partner's suit shows?


4 will be showing the Ace or King
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#4 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 18:34

Anyway, I'm bidding 5. We have a minimum GF and the K is a horrible card. If partner has two spades we are likely losing two spade tricks because opps are leading through the king. If partner has two hearts we are likely losing a spade and a heart. Partner might have Qx but then he might still have the stiff K. He might even have A but missing the K. And so on... there are too many ways to go down if we bid past 5.
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#5 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 19:33

If 4D over 4C is the only RKC bid available, then 4NT is a "last train" type of bid where partner is still interested and wants to know how good our hand is. As it is, I have the golden KQ of diamonds for partner so I bid 6C.
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#6 User is offline   Tomi2 

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Posted 2010-November-17, 19:40

partner thinks we forced to game after his non forcing 2 clubs and then shoewd strong slam interest by 4th suit and 4 clubs and a cuebid, so probably he has a decent hand and asks for aces, I bid 5 clubs no matter if its 0 or 1 and expect partner to go down one. Then I ask myself, why I had forgotten to bid 3NT

View Postjillybean, on 2010-November-17, 17:37, said:

Playing 2/1 & kickback

You hold K91, J862, KQ6, AT42

Partner opens 1st seat

1:1
2:2 *4sgf
3:4
4:4 *cue *cue
4N

What is partner doing bidding 4N?

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#7 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 00:38

How about 4N as a cue here?

And, what is standard when making a cue bid in partners 1st bid suit, 1st round control? Ace only?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#8 User is offline   Lurpoa 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 03:21

View Postjillybean, on 2010-November-17, 17:37, said:

Playing 2/1 & kickback

You hold K91, J862, KQ6, AT42

Partner opens 1st seat

1:1
2:2 *4sgf
3:4
4:4 *cue *cue
4N

What is partner doing bidding 4N?


4 = slam intrest - I think a little optimistic with your 4333 - I would ave tried 3NT.
4 = no A, but I have A (no use to bid a void in P's color).
4 = should be A, but anyway slam intrest.
4NT = yes partner, your decision, if I bid 5 it would mean,I really have nothing to add.
Bob Herreman
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#9 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 03:38

What is our suit exactly. Is the '1' an Ace or a typo?
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#10 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 06:30

RKCB

Clubs have been agreed.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#11 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 06:33

View Postjillybean, on 2010-November-18, 00:38, said:

How about 4N as a cue here?

And, what is standard when making a cue bid in partners 1st bid suit, 1st round control? Ace only?


I have no clue, what standard is, but in general your first cue should show a
top honor, espesially if the cue occurs in p suit.
If p has a long suit, the cue may even be based on the Queen in this suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#12 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 06:59

Dear Marlowe,

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2010-November-18, 06:30, said:

RKCB

Clubs have been agreed.


are you seriously proposing that this is a useful meaning for 4NT after opener has skipped his first opportunity to bid RKCB, or are you simply unaware of the meaning of "Kickback"? In the former case, I disagree. In the latter case, I respectfully request that you try to understand the question before answering it.

Similarilt, I don't understand why Lurpoa explains 4 as denying A, and why Tomi thinks his 5 would show some number of aces.
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#13 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 07:26

View Postjillybean, on 2010-November-18, 00:38, said:

How about 4N as a cue here?

And, what is standard when making a cue bid in partners 1st bid suit, 1st round control? Ace only?

I think this would be the normal definition without further discussion beyond just Kickback, exchanging the meanings of 4NT and the relevant Kickback bid. In partner's suit standard would be a high honour. For most this means an A or K but there are some pairs, mostly Italian from what I can see, who will cue bid partner's suit with a Q in some circumstances. The main point is that making your initial cue-bid in partner's suit with shortage tends to send the wrong message.
(-: Zel :-)

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#14 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 08:00

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2010-November-18, 06:30, said:

RKCB

Clubs have been agreed.

With kind regards
Marlowe

In a normal situation I would agree, but OP clearly stated they play Kickback RKC. It means that 4 is RKC when have been agreed. So 4NT RKCB is impossible.

The standard meaning (if there is one) when playing Kickback RKC is that 4NT replaces the original meaning of 4. So 4NT would show a control. It could be used as some sort of last train for sure.
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#15 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 09:09

View PostFree, on 2010-November-18, 03:38, said:

What is our suit exactly. Is the '1' an Ace or a typo?

sorry, the hand is K9,J862,KQ6,AT42
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#16 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 09:57

View Postandy_h, on 2010-November-17, 19:33, said:

If 4D over 4C is the only RKC bid available, then 4NT is a "last train" type of bid where partner is still interested and wants to know how good our hand is. As it is, I have the golden KQ of diamonds for partner so I bid 6C.


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#17 User is offline   MrGoodwin 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 14:42

Just asking: Does "4D is kickback when clubs are agreed" necessarily imply that 4D is the exclusive way to ask for keycards when clubs are agreed? Or does it mean instead that 4D, when it is available, asks for keycards when clubs are agreed?

In the given auction, 4D is no longer available to either player once opener has bypassed it to control-bid 4H. Why should that prevent opener from asking for keycards the old-fashioned way, via 4NT, after 4H elicits a 4S control-bid from responder? You can imagine - can't you? - a layout in which 4D kickback over 4C won't do the job because opener needs to know about a spade control; and once he finds out about the spade control, then he may want to inquire about keycards.

I could be all wet about this, especially as I play neither kickback nor RKCB . . .
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#18 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 15:42

It is normal to play 4NT as a second chance for RKCB when playing Minorwood but not with Kickback. Normal does not imply universal.
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#19 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 16:12

View Postjillybean, on 2010-November-17, 17:37, said:

Playing 2/1 & kickback

You hold K9, J862, KQ6, AT42

Partner opens 1st seat

1:1
2:2 *4sgf
3:4
4:4 *cue *cue
4N

What is partner doing bidding 4N?



Playing kickback 4nt here is a diamond cue bid. I would not be surprised if pard has a h void here.

second option is 4nt is d cue bid and pard has something like AH, AD, and xx in spades...and was too afraid to 4d kickback.
----

fwiw I dont like responders bidding too weak. If I am opener I expect a much biggerhand out of you. you bid 2s gf and then showed even more with 4c.
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#20 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2010-November-18, 16:15

View PostMrGoodwin, on 2010-November-18, 14:42, said:

Just asking: Does "4D is kickback when clubs are agreed" necessarily imply that 4D is the exclusive way to ask for keycards when clubs are agreed? Or does it mean instead that 4D, when it is available, asks for keycards when clubs are agreed?

In the given auction, 4D is no longer available to either player once opener has bypassed it to control-bid 4H. Why should that prevent opener from asking for keycards the old-fashioned way, via 4NT, after 4H elicits a 4S control-bid from responder? You can imagine - can't you? - a layout in which 4D kickback over 4C won't do the job because opener needs to know about a spade control; and once he finds out about the spade control, then he may want to inquire about keycards.

I could be all wet about this, especially as I play neither kickback nor RKCB . . .


yes 4d is the only way to rkc on this auction..only way....except for say over 4c...5h or 5s would be exclusion here. very rare bid..one I have never made.


4nt is d cue here.

again pard may very well have a h void here.
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