[mike gill]

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Now what? Would you care if it was matchpoints instead of IMPs?

[pooltuna]

at IMPS it feels like you have to take your plus score and double, expecting partner to pass. MP is uglier and a case can be made for 4NT for the minors but of course those are losing to the pairs that get to play 3NT so maybe X is the best choice there as well.

[nige1]

mike gill, on 2010-November-14, 10:18, said:

Now what? Would you care if it was matchpoints instead of IMPs?

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IMO _X = 10, _P = 8, 4N = 5.
At pairs, double has less risk.
Suppose you decide to double. What do you do when partner responds 5♥?
With two places to play, partner should probably have tried 4N rather than 5♥. Hence, arguably, you should pass.

[mikeh]

I double at all scoring, and pray that partner has only 5 hearts, since with 6 and the marked spade shortage he may well (and arguably should) be bidding 5♥. However, he is most likely to pass, to bid 4N next most frequently and bid 5♥ least often....and maybe even make...after all, he wouldn't have opened or bid 5♥ over 4♠ with x QJ10xxx xxx xxx..and 5♥ has decent play.

[mtvesuvius]

Double and pray. Even better playing with an agressive partner, who would pre-empt lots of trash. Only problem is they are 2nd seat R/R. I honestly don't see a better solution than double, but I'm certainly concerned about partner pulling.

[straube]

I'm passing. They got me this time.

[the hog]

Pretty obvious pass. Do you really want partner pulling to 5H?

[Fluffy]

.... I think double is suicide, partner has a void in spades and didn't act, don't test your luck twice.

I am not happy scoring +200 so I'll bid 4NT and wish partner has some help in the minors.

[mikeh]

Fluffy, on 2010-November-15, 08:09, said:

.... I think double is suicide, partner has a void in spades and didn't act, don't test your luck twice.

I am not happy scoring +200 so I'll bid 4NT and wish partner has some help in the minors.

why does he have a void? Oh I know....the 1♠ bid is usually 5 cards, but it is common, for many pairs, to open 1♠ on a 4 card suit with a minimum in 3rd seat, and some players will jump to 4♠ with a shapely hand with only 4 trump.

I'm not suggesting that we assume that they hold only 8 spades, but there is a fair chance that they hold only 9.

I don't like pass at all, but at least we'd get a plus score and lose only 7 or 11 imps. 4N is a nothing bid. It almost certainly turns a plus into a minus, and if we can make anything at the 5-level, we were probably getting either 500 or 800 by doubling.

4N deserves to catch x Qxxxx xxx xxxx down 100 against 800 or so, when partner passes the double (and he damn well should with that hand).

[straube]

Fluffy, on 2010-November-15, 08:09, said:

.... I think double is suicide, partner has a void in spades and didn't act, don't test your luck twice.

I am not happy scoring +200 so I'll bid 4NT and wish partner has some help in the minors.

Curious but what could 4N show after starting with a double? Not a 5-5 hand I think or we would start with unusual or Michaels. Not 1-3-(54) or we back in with a double. Not equal level conversion or we judge to rebid dbl or perhaps 5D. So does it cater to 3-1-5-4 or 2-2-5-4? And what are we doing at this high level with only 5/4 to offer?

[ArtK78]

Fluffy, on 2010-November-15, 08:09, said:

.... I think double is suicide, partner has a void in spades and didn't act, don't test your luck twice.

I am not happy scoring +200 so I'll bid 4NT and wish partner has some help in the minors.

While your first double was for takeout, the double of 4♠ was not for takeout.

Partner, with a spade void, should not reason that his spade void is a defensive liability; rather, he should reason that his spade void is expected based on the auction. So he should not takeout your double just because he is void in spades.

I would double and expect to play it there.

[straube]

ArtK78, on 2010-November-15, 10:31, said:

While your first double was for takeout, the double of 4♠ was not for takeout.

Partner, with a spade void, should not reason that his spade void is a defensive liability; rather, he should reason that his spade void is expected based on the auction. So he should not takeout your double just because he is void in spades.

I would double and expect to play it there.

The meaning of partner's double doesn't change because you have a void. Opponents can have a huge fit. Partner's first double is takeout. Partner's second double would be takeout and bigger.

[Zelandakh]

There are different ways to play the second double. One method is to play it as a strong defensive hand and 4NT is the repeat take-out. In this case the second double is to be left in more often than not. The theory is analogous to facing a 4S opening. Of course you can also play the second double as repeat take-out with values and many strong players do.

[mike gill]

Against even normally aggressively opponents 10 spades has to be a huge favorite over any other number. Even opponents who will raise on 4 or open on 4 are less likely to do so at all red, and especially less likely given we hold the AQ. I think most good players don't usually open 4-card suits at 3rd all red, nor do they always raise to 4♠ just because they have 5 trumps. Yes if your opponents are very aggressive maybe double is right hoping that partner has one and can pass. Although if he does have one and some values, he might pull thinking you are making and that they probably have 10 spades.

I think proceeding on the assumption that partner has a void is the right way to go.

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2010-November-15, 19:27, said:

There are different ways to play the second double. One method is to play it as a strong defensive hand and 4NT is the repeat take-out. In this case the second double is to be left in more often than not. The theory is analogous to facing a 4S opening. Of course you can also play the second double as repeat take-out with values and many strong players do.

I like that agreement. I don't think 4N has a better meaning than takeout for presumably 3 suits. With a 2-suited hand we wouldn't have started with a double.

What about 1H dbl 4H P P 4N? Is that 3-suited and void hearts or something? Dbl would be takeout as well but more flexible?

[mike gill]

For the record, partner's hand was about what one might expect: - JTxxx xxxx JTxx. So he might bid 4N if you double again, but probably you're going to end up in 5♥. The opponents had shape (as expected) so you weren't missing out on a huge penalty in 4♠X if you passed (it was only -1), and because of that shape you are going minus if you bid anything. I think at IMPs there is a strong argument for passing because partner is so unlikely to pass the double (since he won't be willing to risk a double game swing). At MPs I think he'll be more likely to look at his nothing and figure the most likely result is that both sides are not making, so he'll pass. Maybe I'm crazy though.