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raise or pass?

Poll: raise or pass? (17 member(s) have cast votes)

Vulnerable vs, Not

  1. pass (17 votes [100.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 100.00%

  2. 3 spades (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Not vulnerable

  1. pass (17 votes [100.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 100.00%

  2. 3 spades (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-November-01, 22:28

Playing 2/1, constructive raises, MP

J84,AQ83,T76,973

Partner opens 1S:1N 2S:?
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. MikeH
"100% certain that many excellent players would disagree. This is far more about style/judgment than right vs. wrong." Fred
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#2 User is offline   daveharty 

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Posted 2010-November-01, 22:59

Hmm, well the shape is tempting....but pass/pass.
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-November-01, 22:59

Kathryn: a useful way to think of these problems is to imagine you don't know your hand...you are in a bar somewhere in a bridge discussion. You are given the auction and asked 'what does 3 show?'You have no udea of the actual hand.

I think you'd reason that bidding 1n then bidding 3 is how you show a 3 card limit raise. maybe, given that responder now knows of a 9 card fit, he might jump to game with a max limit raise, but otherwise he'd do what he was planning to do when he bid 1N: bid 3 next.

As soon as you realize that partner should take 3 as showing a limit raise, you have the answer to your question. You judged this hand as less than constructive (I think it is close), so you can hardly now call it a limit raise!
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#4 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2010-November-02, 02:18

Hi

I am assuming 1NT is forcing.

The question is, what does a raise show?

Usually one has also the limit raise with 3 card support included in the 1NT,
so the qeustion is, can partner differentiate between my current raise,

which was not even worth a constructive raise the round before - I disagree with
this, but that is judgement,

and the 10-12 3 card raise, also included in the 1NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#5 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2010-November-02, 06:43

I'll bid 2S a round ago.
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#6 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-November-02, 07:55

Thanks.

As an additional question, what should openers hand look like for a 1:1N 3 bid?
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. MikeH
"100% certain that many excellent players would disagree. This is far more about style/judgment than right vs. wrong." Fred
"Hysterical Raisins again - this time on the World stage, not just the ACBL" mycroft
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#7 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-November-02, 08:14

View Postjillybean, on 2010-November-02, 07:55, said:

Thanks.

As an additional question, what should openers hand look like for a 1:1N 3 bid?

AKJ10xx AJx K10x x would be a sound 3 bid (for me, a very sound 3)...different players will have slightly different ideas, but the prototypical hand is around 16 hcp with a fairly good 6 card suit.
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#8 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2010-November-02, 09:17

View Postjillybean, on 2010-November-02, 07:55, said:

Thanks.

As an additional question, what should openers hand look like for a 1:1N 3 bid?


Assuming the same seq., but 1NT being nonforcing: What would openers hand look like?
Basically opener is inviting game oppossite a max. nonforcing 1NT response.
A nonforcing 1NT response showes 6-10HCP without 3 card support, so opener will need
a reasonable 6 card suit and at least 15/16HCP, so that with a max. 1NT response, which
starts with 8HCP, he has at least 24HCP in the combined hands, 24/25 being the magic
number number to have a reasonale shot fro making 9-10 tricks.

It is trendy to say "points schmoints", nevertheless the old HCP calculus will you give you
quite often a good answer to this type of questions.
Of course if you have a hand just a tad too weak for a constructive raise, than this hand
should also accept the invite, but than you basically count something add. for the known 9
card trump fit, peoble claim, that the 9th trump is worth a Queen.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: From this followes also, that opener should strive to make the jump rebid, if he thinks,
that he will have a reasonable shot at making 10 tricks, if he finds a useful card (say
an Ace or an King), 3 card support and a shortage (a doubleton) in the responding hand.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#9 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-November-02, 12:25

Vulnerability doesn't matter much in constructive auctions at MP. While it is true that -200 is a very bad MP score but that is not usually what you're catering to.

In teams it makes sense to try to bid games a little more often since the rewards are higher than the risks, other things being equal.
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#10 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2010-November-02, 13:38

With a 3 card limit raise I would nearly always just bid game if partner rebids their suit. A raise to 3 would be more likely based on doubleton support and a hand where NT doesn't look right. Anyway I would pass the given hand based on valuation, not because I don't have a limit raise. Also, I think a range of 8-10 for a constructive raise is too narrow and like to widen it a bit at the bottom hand so many 7 HCP hands qualify. This is probably not one of them but it is close.
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#11 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2010-November-02, 14:25

View Postjillybean, on 2010-November-02, 07:55, said:

Thanks.

As an additional question, what should openers hand look like for a 1:1N 3 bid?


6 card spades, 15-18 HCP. With more you have to do something else.
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