[babalu1997]

good morning folks

playing lebensohl, what would be a distinction between the following sequences:

1nt-2d-3s

and

1nt-2d-2nt-p
3c-p-3s

ie slow and fast 3 spades

i feel forlorn, i only have one partner who knows lebensohl, the others have a large number of misses

thanks

[campboy]

I think it's standard to play that fast is forcing, slow is invitational.

[helene_t]

Yeah that is probably the most common agreement.

Alternatively play the first as showing a stopper and the second as denying one.

In either case, there are also those who swap the fast and the slow path.

So if you guess you have 25% chance of getting it right.

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2010-November-01, 07:16, said:

Yeah that is probably the most common agreement.

Alternatively play the first as showing a stopper and the second as denying one.

In either case, there are also those who swap the fast and the slow path.

So if you guess you have 25% chance of getting it right.

Yes, many people use the principle of fast arrival to bid 3♠ directly with the one that can be passed and go thru 2N with the one that can't. You just have to disuss it, but some people will call this swapped version reverse lebensohl, so you have a slightly better than 50/50 shot to assume that the direct jump to 3♠ is the strong one.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

campboy, on 2010-November-01, 07:11, said:

I think it's standard to play that fast is forcing,...... slow is invitational.

This is what Ron Anderson ( in his book on Lebensohl ) recommends ... ie. does not guarantee any stop(s).
I think the reasoning is that you rely on the partner ( the 1NT opener ) to have Diam-stop(s).

However, let's say Responder doesn't have a long Major or even a 4 card Major, then over 2D interference, a direct 3NT denies a Diam stop whereas the slow 3NT shows Diam-stop(s).

[paulg]

Cyberyeti, on 2010-November-01, 07:39, said:

Yes, many people use the principle of fast arrival to bid 3♠ directly with the one that can be passed and go thru 2N with the one that can't. You just have to disuss it, but some people will call this swapped version reverse lebensohl, so you have a slightly better than 50/50 shot to assume that the direct jump to 3♠ is the strong one.

My experience is different, as I've never seen anyone playing the direct 3♠ as invitational. So I'd reckon it was more like a 99-1 shot.

[ArtK78]

I play the direct 3♠ as invitational, and the slow 3♠ as forcing.

The rationale is similar to the rationale for bidding the direct 3NT without a stopper and the slow 3NT with a stopper - when you are weaker, it is more important to get your message across quickly, as the opponents are more likely to compete against you when you are weaker than when you are stronger. Furthermore, if you are stronger, you can probably afford to take another bid if they do compete.

Besides, it is also a matter of consistency. Why play slow arrival in some Lebensohl auctions and not in others?

[wank]

here (uk) it's standard to play it consistently but reversed to you art, i.e. a direct 3NT shows a stop and a direct 3S is forcing

[Cyberyeti]

paulg, on 2010-November-01, 09:59, said:

My experience is different, as I've never seen anyone playing the direct 3♠ as invitational. So I'd reckon it was more like a 99-1 shot.

You've not played against me or any of the better pairs from my part of the world then, and we describe it as "modified reversed lebensohl" as of course clubs have to be shown the normal way round.

Even if you don't do this, which way round you play showing the stopper varies wildly (we show the stop thru 2N).

[paulg]

Cyberyeti, on 2010-November-01, 11:49, said:

You've not played against me or any of the better pairs from my part of the world then ...

A fair conclusion

Cyberyeti, on 2010-November-01, 11:49, said:

Even if you don't do this, which way round you play showing the stopper varies wildly (we show the stop thru 2N).

This is on my list of ten things to discuss in the five minutes before the game at the club. Absolutely no consistency in what people prefer - even regular partnerships can hold differing views!