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Penalty doubles

#1 User is offline   swanway 

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Posted 2010-November-24, 05:11




This problem has been sent to me with a request to pass it on to the forum for a ruling. I hope you can help

North opened 1NT. East Doubles South Redoubles West Passes. North takes some time to reply and then bids 2H. At this point East (who is the Director) asks North what the redouble bid meant. She is correctly informed that it is a request for North to bid a four card suit. North failed to also state that South was holding 4-3-3-3 distribution. West is happy so East bids 2S that South doubles. After passes by West and North East states that North should have alerted South's double because it was for penalties. East now demands that she can withdraw her bid of 2S because the double was not alerted and that South had not indicated that he had points. Can East withdraw her bid?
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#2 User is offline   campboy 

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Posted 2010-November-24, 05:35

What? No, of course not. The failure to alert was after the 2 bid. West can change her final pass if she likes, since she may have done something different if the double had been correctly alerted.

I was going to say that East should be calling the director rather than bullying opponents into letting her change her call. That goes double if East is the director -- there must be someone else at the club who can give a ruling.
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#3 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2010-November-24, 05:47

Oh dear, this sounds a bit of a mess, if the facts are as set out here! Is East really suggesting she can withdraw a bid that took place before the potential MI (ie the failure to alert the double of 2)? This is just nonsense, for several reasons:

1) was there MI? Well, if the double was for penalties then it should have been alerted (in England). But it doesn't sound like East was misinformed, since she herself seems to have realised it was for penalties.

2) partner has already bid over the "mis-explained" bid, so the there is no scope for East to change her bid, anyway. West's pass over the double may potentially be withdrawn if affected by MI, but any damage before that will have to wait for an adjustment after the hand.

3) but most bizarre of all, the 2 bid was BEFORE the potential MI, so cannot possibly have been affected by it.

So East is barking up completely the wrong tree if the issue is potential MI concerning the double of 2. Where there might potentially be a relevant issue of MI, though, is with the explanation of the redouble, and I wonder if that is what East was really trying to say. The explanation given was that North was asked to bid a 4-card suit, and East seems to have assumed that must have meant the hand was weak. It may be more normal to ask partner to rescue 1Nx when you are weak, but I don't see any indication that the explanation given was wrong, and I would be doubtful of ruling there was any MI here. In any case, following the logic of 2) above, even if there were MI then rectification would have to wait until after the hand rather than through allowing East to withdraw the 2 bid.

Finally, there is the tricky point that "East is the director". It really helps everyone if the TD can somehow make clear that they are not the TD with respect to rulings at their own table....
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#4 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-November-24, 06:27

Hell no, East can't take back his call. It's like bidding 1NT-Dbl-p-p-p where Dbl is penalty, and asking to replace 1NT with a pass.
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#5 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2010-November-24, 08:29

I think the trouble is with the explanation and meaning of the redouble, no?

Quote

At this point East (who is the Director) asks North what the redouble bid meant. She is correctly informed that it is a request for North to bid a four card suit. North failed to also state that South was holding 4-3-3-3 distribution.
Did the redouble also specify a strength?

Agree with others that if the question is merely about the failure to alert the double of 2 as penalty, then east cannot take back her 2 bid and is being quite squirrely by even suggesting it.
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#6 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2010-November-24, 09:41

How did East come to be a director?
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#7 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-November-24, 09:45

View Postswanway, on 2010-November-24, 05:11, said:

East states that North should have alerted South's double because it was for penalties.


This is obviously wrong because, here in Germany, doubles are never alertable when playing without screens.
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#8 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2010-November-24, 10:42

View Postmgoetze, on 2010-November-24, 09:45, said:

This is obviously wrong because, here in Germany, doubles are never alertable when playing without screens.

What makes you think they were playing in Germany?
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#9 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-November-25, 03:06

View Postgordontd, on 2010-November-24, 10:42, said:

What makes you think they were playing in Germany?

If they play in Belgium then doubles aren't alertable as well. But it wasn't stated where this all happened... B)
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#10 User is offline   iviehoff 

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Posted 2010-November-25, 04:44

View PostFree, on 2010-November-25, 03:06, said:

But it wasn't stated where this all happened... B)

Since such a double is alertable in England, and aside from our imitators probably nowhere else, I think it is a fair guess that is where it is.
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#11 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2010-November-25, 15:52

View Postgordontd, on 2010-November-24, 10:42, said:

What makes you think they were playing in Germany?


Well I didn't really think so but since the OP didn't specify, what are we supposed to say?
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#12 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2010-November-25, 19:12

How about "where did this take place?"
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#13 User is offline   swanway 

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Posted 2010-November-26, 11:23

This bridge problem happened in England. Thank you for your comments
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