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1C:1S 2C:2D

Poll: 1C:1S 2C:2D (50 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you play 2D natural or NMF?

  1. natural, not forcing (2 votes [4.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.00%

  2. "new minor forcing" (27 votes [54.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 54.00%

  3. natural, forcing (21 votes [42.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 42.00%

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#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-October-21, 23:24

Please vote and explain your choice.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
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"At last: just calm down, this kind of disrupted boards happens every day in our bridge community. It will always be an inherent part of bridge until we move to a modern platform, and then will we have other hopefully less frequent issues." P Swennson
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#2 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 00:16

Neither. (semi-)Natural + forcing.

"New minor forcing" typically only refers to auctions after 1nt rebid. Using 2d as wholly artificial force (usually in conjunction with playing 2h as non-forcing), is properly termed something else, "Bourke relay" perhaps.
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#3 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 00:24

The standard meaning for both 2D and 2H, natural and forcing, doesn't seem to be listed. The reason to play 2D artificial and forcing is so that 2H can be NF. Don't think I've ever met someone who played 2D NF here.

It's an uncomfortable auction no matter how you play it.
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#4 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 00:45

2D, natural forcing is listed now.
I'm working through the differences in a potential new partnership and this is something that has come up.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
(still learning)
"At last: just calm down, this kind of disrupted boards happens every day in our bridge community. It will always be an inherent part of bridge until we move to a modern platform, and then will we have other hopefully less frequent issues." P Swennson
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#5 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 02:11

None of the above. I prefer 2 artificial and forcing, it doesn't mean I have 5. It's not the same as NMF.
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#6 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 05:27

Agree with Sieggy...
only I call it "cheapest (bid)" new suit forcing ( may be artificial )-- in this case 2D -- after Opener's rebid of his minor.
This way 2H is NF.

The more problemic auction is:
1D - 1S
2D - ??
Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

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#7 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 05:34

as siegmund said, this depends on the meaning of 2 if 2 is forcing then this is nat (seminat), forcing; if 2 is not forcing, this is just forcing.
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#8 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 07:12

View PostFree, on 2010-October-22, 02:11, said:

None of the above. I prefer 2 artificial and forcing, it doesn't mean I have 5. It's not the same as NMF.


You need another choice. I agree with Frederick here.
Ron
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#9 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 07:29

View PostFree, on 2010-October-22, 02:11, said:

None of the above. I prefer 2 artificial and forcing, it doesn't mean I have 5. It's not the same as NMF.


If 2 is artificial and you don't have 5, what do you have, support?
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
(still learning)
"At last: just calm down, this kind of disrupted boards happens every day in our bridge community. It will always be an inherent part of bridge until we move to a modern platform, and then will we have other hopefully less frequent issues." P Swennson
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#10 User is offline   TWO4BRIDGE 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 07:43

View Postjillybean, on 2010-October-22, 07:29, said:

If 2 is artificial and you don't have 5, what do you have, support?

Since 2H is NF, Responder may have a GF 5s/4h hand or a GF hand with 4s and yes, Clubs or has a good hand but needs more info ( like a Ht-stop ) for NT..... similar options as in NMF only Opener has an unbalanced hand.

1C - 1S
2C - 2D!
2NT - 3C ( now is GF w/Cl )

...because if he just wanted to invite, Responder would just bid 3C over 2C.
Don Stenmark
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"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall

" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh

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#11 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 07:45

View Postjillybean, on 2010-October-22, 07:29, said:

If 2 is artificial and you don't have 5, what do you have, support?

I didn't say I never have 5, I said that bidding 2 doesn't imply that I have 5.

I can have all sorts of hands actually. I can still have 5+, I can have , I can have support, I can have a balanced slam try,...
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#12 User is offline   wyman 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 07:46

I actually prefer 1m-1S; 2X-2H to be GF.
1m-2M can show 5S/4H const/inv.

This auction should still be a checkback, though, imo.

edit: I mean opener's priority should be to pattern out, first showing 3 card support for responder's major. Responder can have a range of hands, not all of which include 5+M.
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#13 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 08:03

NMF can also have less than 5 in responder's major, it can still have the other minor, a GF raise of opener's minor, a balanced slam try, ... :)
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#14 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 08:03

Thanks. I will find out more before we play tonight.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
(still learning)
"At last: just calm down, this kind of disrupted boards happens every day in our bridge community. It will always be an inherent part of bridge until we move to a modern platform, and then will we have other hopefully less frequent issues." P Swennson
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#15 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2010-October-22, 11:11

Just an artificial GF for me -- This is how to begin a Slammish auction with Clubs/Spades or looking for a red suit fit etc...
Yay for the "Ignored Users" feature!
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#16 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2010-October-23, 13:01

View Postmtvesuvius, on 2010-October-22, 11:11, said:

Just an artificial GF for me -- This is how to begin a Slammish auction with Clubs/Spades or looking for a red suit fit etc...


It is forcing. Some play that it is NMF, just as if opener had rebid 1NT. In any case, the auction needs background information what 1C-1S-2C-3D and 1C-1S-2C-3C are. In any case, 2D is definitely forcing and can contain various hand types, which will be clarified later in the auction. 2H would be nonforcing though still not weak, because with weak hands, responder will settle for a reasonable 2C, knowing opener has six of them.
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#17 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-October-23, 22:55

My partner does play this as "NMF" with 2 not forcing. For me, I doubt that the benefit is worth the memory load. I have other things I'd rather add so we will have to talk more.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
(still learning)
"At last: just calm down, this kind of disrupted boards happens every day in our bridge community. It will always be an inherent part of bridge until we move to a modern platform, and then will we have other hopefully less frequent issues." P Swennson
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#18 User is offline   jukmoi 

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Posted 2010-October-26, 06:29

I play that 2 is artificial and sets up a GF tempo. Thus 3, 2NT and 3 are all invitational only. And 2 is nonforcing though I would never pass it without an clear agreement.
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#19 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-October-28, 00:15

You might find this link interesting reading if you are having the discussion in your partnership.
(-: Zel :-)
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#20 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2010-October-28, 10:59

I play it as "third suit forcing", which basically is NMF the old-fashioned way, without all the explicit agreements tacked on to it in the last 30 years. Therefore:
2D is ostensibly diamonds, but it is guaranteed forcing (as is 2H in my system); there may be times when partner has "no real bid, but wants to force" - and in that case, 2D is the "least lie".
So Natural and forcing, but he "shows but does not promise" diamonds. I realize it's a handwavy definition, but it works.
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