[bucky]

Zelandakh, on Oct 16 2010, 08:18 AM, said:

bucky, on Oct 16 2010, 01:01 AM, said:

I think over artificial X of 1NT, it is almost mandatory to play XX as business. Also, the word "takeout" seems strange here; no suit has been bid, and I couldn't grasp the concept of "4-suit takeout".

Mandatory? I am guessing you only have experience of a strong NT. I would suggest to you that the vast majority of weak and mini NTers play XX here in some conventional way. Some play it as any 1-suiter, some as clubs, some as a weak 4333 hand. But very very few play it as business.

I can only say that you guessed wrong.

Please also note my qualifying term "over artificial X". Over penalty X it makes sense to use XX as conventional. When opponents make an artificial double (which is often based on shape instead of value), you have a better chance of holding a good hand and it is logical to use XX to show it.

[NickRW]

bucky, on Oct 17 2010, 11:38 PM, said:

Zelandakh, on Oct 16 2010, 08:18 AM, said:

bucky, on Oct 16 2010, 01:01 AM, said:

I think over artificial X of 1NT, it is almost mandatory to play XX as business. Also, the word "takeout" seems strange here; no suit has been bid, and I couldn't grasp the concept of "4-suit takeout".

Mandatory? I am guessing you only have experience of a strong NT. I would suggest to you that the vast majority of weak and mini NTers play XX here in some conventional way. Some play it as any 1-suiter, some as clubs, some as a weak 4333 hand. But very very few play it as business.

I can only say that you guessed wrong.

Please also note my qualifying term "over artificial X". Over penalty X it makes sense to use XX as conventional. When opponents make an artificial double (which is often based on shape instead of value), you have a better chance of holding a good hand and it is logical to use XX to show it.

Well, yes, it is logical. One can still use pass forces XX and leave it in if you have values. It allows expression of more hand types - at the risk that your hand will be ambiguous to partner should the opps use up the bidding room before it gets back to you.

[gwnn]

kgr, on Oct 16 2010, 08:16 AM, said:

gwnn, on Oct 15 2010, 05:36 PM, said:

As a general rule, don't ever sit if you intended to garbage stayman before. Only sit with honour doubleton or three cards and inv+ strength.

I would pass it with ♣ & ♦ switched

I don't like that so much since we will sometimes go down and it hurts quite a bit when we know 2♠ is almost sure to make. Of course I'm talking like I know for sure where the optimum dividing line is. It would take a million doubles and a hundred thousand redoubles to find out where the truth lies. Next time we play in a TM as counterparts maybe you'll get +760 and me +140, but I'm personally hoping for -400 vs -50

[Zelandakh]

bucky, on Oct 17 2010, 11:38 PM, said:

I can only say that you guessed wrong.

Please also note my qualifying term "over artificial X". Over penalty X it makes sense to use XX as conventional. When opponents make an artificial double (which is often based on shape instead of value), you have a better chance of holding a good hand and it is logical to use XX to show it.

The majority of players who play an artificial double of a weak NT do so with a specified minimum of hcp, typically 10 or 11. Thus the double is easy for 4th hand to leave in a fair proportion of the time. This is one of the keys to Lionel, 11 + 11 is much more common than 15 + 7. Because of this it is best to get your run-outs in before the opps can make a penalty pass. As Nick says, many also play Pass forces Redouble to handle the good hands. If the opponents' double shows a specified suit you can also cue it with a good hand worried about preemption. Where the double is unspecified as to suit it is safe to show your good hand later since they are unlikely to have preempted you before your next call.

[bucky]

NickRW, on Oct 18 2010, 09:13 AM, said:

Well, yes, it is logical. One can still use pass forces XX and leave it in if you have values. It allows expression of more hand types - at the risk that your hand will be ambiguous to partner should the opps use up the bidding room before it gets back to you.

I think it depends on the value promised in the artificial X. At least for the strong NT opening case, most of artificial doubles are not going to be left in, so the responder doesn't get to use this "force opener to XX then pass to show value" tool very often. If the "trap pass" is not going to frequently work as planned, it may be better off to directly use XX to show value (and set up force in subsequent biddings).

[bucky]

Zelandakh, on Oct 18 2010, 12:08 PM, said:

The majority of players who play an artificial double of a weak NT do so with a specified minimum of hcp, typically 10 or 11. Thus the double is easy for 4th hand to leave in a fair proportion of the time. This is one of the keys to Lionel, 11 + 11 is much more common than 15 + 7. Because of this it is best to get your run-outs in before the opps can make a penalty pass. As Nick says, many also play Pass forces Redouble to handle the good hands. If the opponents' double shows a specified suit you can also cue it with a good hand worried about preemption. Where the double is unspecified as to suit it is safe to show your good hand later since they are unlikely to have preempted you before your next call.

I concur that my original argument was directly mostly on strong NT openings. Against weak NT openings most defenses enlist penalty double, or artificial doubles that carry at least mild penalty tone. Since the double will be left in quite often, then the shifted odds may justify a different counter-treatment.