[whereagles]

Consider these auctions in 2/1:

1)
5S (opening)

2)
2C 2D (waiting)
5S

3)
6S

4)
2C 2D
6S

What do you think opener has? Would your interpretation change with seat?

[hrothgar]

Sabine Auken and Ron Anderson produced a nice little book entitled preempts from A to Z. As I recall, the book didn't describe 5 level major suit preempts.

These are not auctions that I have really bothered to consider.
Many of them are almost non-sensical.

Case in point:

2♣ - 2♦
5♠

What does the 2D "waiting" bid deny???
Unless you have very clear and specific agreements about this, its difficult to hypothesize what the 5♠ jump rebid should show.

Without discussion, I would assume that both a 5♠ and a 6♠ opening are preemptive.

[whereagles]

2D waiting usually denies a good 5 card suit (bid the suit) or NT-oriented hand (bid 2NT). Can be bid on weakish hands, but also on some good hands that wish to have opener describe his hand first.

[Free]

I can understand some people want to give a meaning to EVERY bid, but these bid's are totally unnecessary imo...

[1eyedjack]

Free, on Aug 12 2004, 11:15 AM, said:

I can understand some people want to give a meaning to EVERY bid, but these bid's are totally unnecessary imo...

I recall this coming up at the table about 22 years ago in a sim pairs. We had actually agreed on it.

5S opener showed 11 playing tricks with 2 trump losers
6S opener showed 12 playing tricks with 1 trump loser

Going via 2C showed the same playing tricks but with outside Ace loser(s) (but no void).

The 5S opener came up in the sim pairs, and was duly passed out in 5S, wrapping up 11 tricks. At another table someone opened 1C "Precision" and got into a tangle when the opps were at the 5 level before next bid. Ended up in 6. Became something of a joke in college after that. Whenever we came up against them we would ask how many "Z" points their bids showed (nothing to do with Zar, just happened to be the first initial of his name), to remind him of his slavish devotion to points.

[whereagles]

These sequences were discussed on an issue of "Le Bridgeur" as well.

[sceptic]

I used to play similar conventions when I was first learning bridge (about 8 weeks into the game I think) cos I had no idea how to bid properly. NOT much has changed except I dont open at 5 or 6 level so often.

[paulhar]

I believe the classic meanings are:

5S shows a hand that wants partner to bid 6 with one of the top two honors and 7 with both. Example: QJ109865, - , AKQJ2, A

6S shows a hand that wants partner to bid 7 with one of the top two honors.
Example: AQJ10986, -, -, AKQJ32

Not useful? In my early bridge days, my partner opened 6S, and with Kx and little else, I bid 7. Cold. At the other table, it went 2C (5C) P (P) 6S (P) 7S. Unfortunately, the partner of the 5C bidder (our teammate) had a clearcut 7C bid which might have won the board for us.

I think that the auctions that occur after 2C would indicate that partner doesn't know these classic meanings.

Here's a problem I was given 25 years ago:
5S P ?
void, AK, AKQJ, QJ109765

Answer in hidden text:

Spoiler

The only possible hand for partner is QJ1098765432/-/-/AK
so clearly the right bid is 7C!

[pclayton]

whereagles, on Aug 12 2004, 07:04 AM, said:

Consider these auctions in 2/1:

1)
5S (opening)

2)
2C 2D (waiting)
5S

3)
6S

4)
2C 2D
6S

What do you think opener has? Would your interpretation change with seat?

Amalya Kearse defines a 5♠ opener as no losers except two of the top three trump. I think 2♣-2x - 5♠ should show this hand personally.

An opening 5♠ call should be made on a preemptive hand where you aren't selling out at the 5 level.

A 6♠ opener is a 'Rick James' call (...a Superfreak). Sorry, couldn't resist

2♣-2x-6♠ makes no sense whatsoever.

[1eyedjack]

pclayton, on Aug 12 2004, 12:44 PM, said:

Amalya Kearse defines a 5♠ opener as no losers except two of the top three trump. I think 2♣-2x - 5♠ should show this hand personally.

A possible advantage of using immediate 5 opener to show this hand is that if you open 2♣ you cannot guarantee that it will not be at the 5 level by opps before it comes back to you. Then your next 5-bid may be ambiguous.

Granted, you lose the 5-level preempt. But who knows whether a 4 level preempt would have done the trick?

[inquiry]

I was taught that an opening bid of 5 of a major was a demand to bid 6 with one top honor, 7 with two. And that an opening bid of 6 was bid grand with a top honor.

I have to admit, in all the many years of bridge, I have never had such an opening bid, and my partners have opened five a major from time to time, and never once did their bid fit with this description.

I guess what I would play if given a chance to think about it is an opneing bid of 5 of a major vulnerable fits this description, an opening bid of 5 of major not vul is ultra preempt.

Now then, what is 2C-2D-5M... and 2C-2D-6M.... I use 2C-2D-3M as forcing, trump establishment.. use to play this as an asking bid.... But you could surely use 3M followed by 5NT for GRAND SLAM force, so 6M is to play, plaiin and simple.

3M followed by 5M could serve teh same function as the immediate 2C-2D-5M... so I guess I am not sure.

Ben

[whereagles]

Well, I think the point here is whether a 5M or 6-something opening is more useful as a preempt or to show a hand that has 1 or 2 trump losers.

It would seem that the preemptish hand comes out more often, so I'd say it's probably more with the odds to use those bids as a preempt. I do remember a few hands I wanted to open 5M, but I have never had an 11 playing tricks hand The strong hands with 1-2 trump losers can be bid via 2C anyway.

[Trpltrbl]

Bid 6 with one tophonor and 7 with 2.
But I think if you go slow after 2♣ opening you will find it anyhow. Isn't that why people play RKC ?

Mike

[1eyedjack]

Trpltrbl, on Aug 13 2004, 11:02 AM, said:

Isn't that why people play RKC ?

Can get fiddley. There is usually a void or two floating around. Voidwood might catch that, but you have to go through the suit-setting sequences, and hope the opps don't bounce and a few other nasties.