[babalu1997]

i have seen some annoying auctions, such as:

1 major by opp- overcall by p

or

1 major by opp- todbl by partner



once i act over those those bids they are followed by a no trump bid, even 3nt

problem is that these guys (or gals) have medium balanced hands with 4 trumps, like 12-15

i can and will bid a 4 card overcall at the one level with the right hands, but the takeout doubles stink especially when they hold a doubleton in an unbid suit.


i can live with the overcalls if they direct the lead, but if one holds qjxx in the opps suit and that counts towards the requirements of the overcall at the 2 level, 2nt really stinks .

constructive , uncontested bidding, is relatively easy regardless of system

but the contested auctions are really hard to deal with

i am in the process of auditioning partners, but i really do not have much to ask after i see these auctions, the guy will defend his bids anyway, so i let them go.

[barmar]

There are some players who think that if they have opening strength, they HAVE to bid something.

They're wrong, but good luck convincing them. Like most bad players, they have selective memory, only remember when their foolishness worked out, not all the times they went down while opponents weren't making anything.

[whereagles]

dead and buried

it sometimes unearths from the grave, though

[gwnn]

I like doubling with most weak no trumps with 2+ in unbid minors and 3+ in unbid majors and not ridiculously too much in their suit. I guess I'm helping opps when I pass but they never believe how sick my doubles are so they don't discount enough hands. Also, they play my partner for all the trump honours.

[helene_t]

Just a terminology rant: passing, after RHO opened, holding a balanced 13-count with four cards in their suit is not a "trap pass". A trap pass means that you hope partner doubles and you are going to convert the double in that case. That would require at least 5, preferably 6, enemy trumps.

[barmar]

Did I see Meckstroth make one of these doubles tonight in the Rosenblum final? I think he doubled Moss's 1♣ opening with 4333, with ♣KQx.

But the big boys seem to do lots of things that the columnists recommend against. On another hand in that final quarter, Moss opened 2♥ in second seat with a side void.

[the hog]

barmar, on Oct 14 2010, 09:54 AM, said:

Did I see Meckstroth make one of these doubles tonight in the Rosenblum final? I think he doubled Moss's 1♣ opening with 4333, with ♣KQx.

But the big boys seem to do lots of things that the columnists recommend against. On another hand in that final quarter, Moss opened 2♥ in second seat with a side void.

What is wrong with having a side void? Your pre empts should be many and varied.

[mike777]

ok ok oik i am old


fav. preempts very very weak
= vulwithin 3
unfav=with 2 tricks....i am old

[billw55]

barmar, on Oct 13 2010, 01:00 AM, said:

There are some players who think that if they have opening strength, they HAVE to bid something.

mehhh I seem to see a lot of these characters.

"I have 13 points, I had to do something."

"Yes there is something you had to do. Pass."

"Well I have to bid, I have 13 points."

grrrrr

[kenberg]

mike777, on Oct 13 2010, 10:43 PM, said:

ok ok oik i am old


fav. preempts very very weak
= vulwithin 3
unfav=with 2 tricks....i am old

A weak 2♥, for example, might be bid for either of two reasons:
a. To get in the opponent's way
b. To tell partner that there is actually some chance that it might be good to play in hearts at some level.

I tend to emphasize b. over a. But then I am even older than you are.


As to the OP, I find it a little confusing. It seems to be suggesting that partner makes a TO double and then, with no particular encouragement, rebids some number of NT on a 12 count. Anything can happen in a pick-up, but at some point behavior reaches a level of absurdity that it is difficult to comment sensibly. A person lights his cigar while filling his gas tank? Those who speak Minnesotan would say "That's different".

[babalu1997]

barmar, on Oct 13 2010, 09:54 PM, said:

Did I see Meckstroth make one of these doubles tonight in the Rosenblum final? I think he doubled Moss's 1♣ opening with 4333, with ♣KQx.

But the big boys seem to do lots of things that the columnists recommend against. On another hand in that final quarter, Moss opened 2♥ in second seat with a side void.

I see nothing wrong with that, the kq is well placed, he will make a good dummy.

The problem is not necessarily the double, but the subsequent 2nt or 3nt rebid, penalty doubles. The expert is not planning on rebidding 3nt, he will pass any non forcing bid his partner makes.

Mike Lawrence, whose books are widely available, illustrates the principles with hands which fit the rules and many others which deviate from the rules.

While trying to find an elegant way to cease playing with the guy in question, I played with him again. The funny thing was i was dealt 3 hands with "points", passed them all, never doubled and scored 75% or more because the opps bid their way silly. I pointed it out to him, and also pointed out to him that 2 similar hands in which he acted resulted in dismal results.

I feel awful to appear as such a result merchant, but perhaps that is the only way to get my point across.

I only play online, so much stuff i learned from standard books, and i have never felt the urge to double with every 12 count, or even open with every 12 count. Yet i can do the same with less than that.

maybe there are too many factors in hand valuation that makes it hard for the players to think or practice it.

[babalu1997]

[quote name='billw55' date='Oct 14 2010, 07:26 AM'] [quote name='barmar' date='Oct 13 2010, 01:00 AM']

"I have 13 points, I had to do something." [/quote]
lol, a few years ago i saw the bidding go

PASS-PASS-1DIAMOND- PASS- some suit by me, and at the the end of the aution i was in declarer`s hell.


Partner had the bare ace of diamond.

why did you open that?

I WAS IN THIRD SEAT. I HAD TO OPEN.

lol

[kenberg]

babalu1997, on Oct 14 2010, 08:11 AM, said:

barmar, on Oct 13 2010, 09:54 PM, said:

Did I see Meckstroth make one of these doubles tonight in the Rosenblum final?  I think he doubled Moss's 1♣ opening with 4333, with ♣KQx.

But the big boys seem to do lots of things that the columnists recommend against.  On another hand in that final quarter, Moss opened 2♥ in second seat with a side void.

I see nothing wrong with that, the kq is well placed, he will make a good dummy.

The problem is not necessarily the double, but the subsequent 2nt or 3nt rebid, penalty doubles. The expert is not planning on rebidding 3nt, he will pass any non forcing bid his partner makes.

Mike Lawrence, whose books are widely available, illustrates the principles with hands which fit the rules and many others which deviate from the rules.

While trying to find an elegant way to cease playing with the guy in question, I played with him again. The funny thing was i was dealt 3 hands with "points", passed them all, never doubled and scored 75% or more because the opps bid their way silly. I pointed it out to him, and also pointed out to him that 2 similar hands in which he acted resulted in dismal results.

I feel awful to appear as such a result merchant, but perhaps that is the only way to get my point across.

I only play online, so much stuff i learned from standard books, and i have never felt the urge to double with every 12 count, or even open with every 12 count. Yet i can do the same with less than that.

maybe there are too many factors in hand valuation that makes it hard for the players to think or practice it.

Something to consider:

I have had few if any partners online (or elsewhere for that matter) who

a. Are willing to play with me and
b. are so clearly better than I am that I am that I welcome extensive lessons from them.

My approach to partners is

Do I see them as being approximately at my level? It's not much fun to regularly play with someone at a much lower level and I cannot see why someone at a much higher level would play regularly with me. I think Fred, even before his team won the World championships, would politely decline my suggestion that we form a partnership. After this first hurdle is past and we each, implicitly or explicitly, acknowledge the other's competence, then we have to see if we can agree on a general approach. I don't play Big Club systems. I just don't. After we get some agreements, then most issues about a specific hand should be something like "I intended that play to be a count card, or that bid to show three card support, or etc, did you take it that way?".

[the hog]

[quote name='babalu1997' date='Oct 14 2010, 08:14 PM'] [quote name='billw55' date='Oct 14 2010, 07:26 AM'] [quote name='barmar' date='Oct 13 2010, 01:00 AM']

"I have 13 points, I had to do something." [/QUOTE]
lol, a few years ago i saw the bidding go

PASS-PASS-1DIAMOND- PASS- some suit by me, and at the the end of the aution i was in declarer`s hell.


Partner had the bare ace of diamond.

why did you open that?

I WAS IN THIRD SEAT. I HAD TO OPEN.

lol [/quote]
Well, have you seen some of the third seat openings in the Rosenblum?

AKxx of S and out......this is just one example of many.

[kenberg]

Yes, but Meckstroth can take six tricks with the AKxxx

[babalu1997]

[quote name='The_Hog' date='Oct 14 2010, 07:43 PM'] [quote name='babalu1997' date='Oct 14 2010, 08:14 PM'] [quote name='billw55' date='Oct 14 2010, 07:26 AM'] [quote name='barmar' date='Oct 13 2010, 01:00 AM']

"I have 13 points, I had to do something." [/QUOTE]
lol, a few years ago i saw the bidding go

PASS-PASS-1DIAMOND- PASS- some suit by me, and at the the end of the aution i was in declarer`s hell.


Partner had the bare ace of diamond.

why did you open that?

I WAS IN THIRD SEAT. I HAD TO OPEN.

lol [/QUOTE]
Well, have you seen some of the third seat openings in the Rosenblum?

AKxx of S and out......this is just one example of many. [/quote]
hog you does flatter me.

you seem to think one day i be playing the rosenblums and spingold

or that them experts play the free tourneys at bbo.

[barmar]

babalu1997, on Oct 14 2010, 09:11 AM, said:

barmar, on Oct 13 2010, 09:54 PM, said:

Did I see Meckstroth make one of these doubles tonight in the Rosenblum final?  I think he doubled Moss's 1♣ opening with 4333, with ♣KQx.

But the big boys seem to do lots of things that the columnists recommend against.  On another hand in that final quarter, Moss opened 2♥ in second seat with a side void.

I see nothing wrong with that, the kq is well placed, he will make a good dummy.

The problem is not necessarily the double, but the subsequent 2nt or 3nt rebid, penalty doubles. The expert is not planning on rebidding 3nt, he will pass any non forcing bid his partner makes.

Mike Lawrence, whose books are widely available, illustrates the principles with hands which fit the rules and many others which deviate from the rules.

Yes, the club honors may be well placed, but partner isn't going to play you for a hand like this. If partner also has a few clubs, the opponents may be able to ruff the suit.

I pulled out my copy of Lawrence's "Complete Book on Takeout Doubles". He gives a few examples of balanced hands after a 1♦ opening bid on your right:

He would double with:
AKx J98 763 AQ84: "Poor shape, but all working points."
AQ7 KQ5 8652 KJ2: "The shape is worse than on the previous hand. With fifteen useful points in the unbid suits, though, the hand has potential."

He passes with:
KQ8 A73 K432 J87: "You only have 13 points, some of which are in their suit."
K873 Aj6 Q82 K72: "Your Queen of diamonds is poor and the shape is bad."

He then goes on: "There is a little-known way to show hands like these and I recommend it to you. Pass."

I've seen some of the really poor players in my club double a minor opening with 4-1 in the majors and 5 of opener's suit. They really think that if you have 13 points you can't pass! Of course, they also have poor partners, who they can't trust to balance with weak hands, so maybe they do have to do something to show their strength. They're in trouble no matter what.

[bucky]

As it is nearly impossible to convince people they have bad bidding habits, I would advise simply to stop playing with them. In order to upgrade your game, you have to play with a partner who has *some* sanity in bidding.

[ArtK78]

When I first started playing this game (sometime back in the 19th century, I believe), there was a bridge game held at the local Jewish Community Center every Monday night. Even for a novice, it was clear to me that the quality of play at the JCC was lower than the quality of play at the other bridge clubs at which I played.

There was a tactic (if that is the right word) which was so common at the JCC that the circle of players that I associated with referred to it as the "JCC Double." It went something like this:

(1♠) - x* - (P) - 2♥
(P) - 2NT** - (P) - 3♥
(P) - 3NT*** - (P) - P****
(P)

* JCC Double
** Pard, I don't like your suit
*** Pard, I REALLY don't like your suit
**** OK, I give up.

The 2NT and 3NT bids were usually accompanied by a great deal of body action indicating that the bidder was very uncomfortable with what was happening.

Invariably, the doubler would hold 4 or 5 of the opponent's suit, a singleton or doubleton in his partner's suit, and a 13 count.

The idea that a double followed by a no trump bid showed a hand too good to overcall 1NT was a concept completely foreign to the practitioners of the JCC double.