[Nilz]

P-1♥-P-P-
x-1♠-x

Do you agree that this double shows a penalty pass of hearts? What does it say about spades- takeout oriented (say a 0634 shape or similar) or penalty oriented (say a 4522 shape or similar)? Or does it just show a penalty pass of hearts and ask partner to do something intelligent (say a 2623 shape or similar)?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 the 2nd X certainly does not show a penalty pass of hearts, why should it,
just because one has length in a suit, does not mean, that one wants to play
a doubled contract on the 1 level, depending on your req., there are even
hands with 12-14HCP and xxx in hearts, which dont have a bid after 1H.
#2 Without add. req. I would play the 2nd X as showing spades, if you play
lots of responsive doubles, and if you also overcall reg. with 4 sapdes, than
it may make sense to play the X as showing 4-4 in the minors

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Fluffy]

double not only shows a penalty pass of hearts, but also a good hand (GF values, althou some might say inv+).

It won't be based on singleton, nobody has ever got rich playing at the 1 level doubled when the opps have a fit. Normally 3 cards, but doubleton honnor is also possible.

[Zelandakh]

The 'modern' trend is to play a double of 1S bid over a take-out double as a hand with spades. This is more common after an immediate double but the same logic applies here. Although this could be seen as penalty it is better to think of it as simply a decent 1S response to the take-out double and is done partly to expose an otherwise very easy (and painless) psyche. The older method forces a bid of 2S here if Advancer wants to show spades.

[the hog]

No this does not show a penalty x of H. I agree with Uwe here.

[peachy]

Without discussion/agreement, my logic says it shows a hand that is willing to defend 1SX or 2HX and possibly other strains doubled as well. Given that partner had initially passed, this second dbl also shows a good opening hand that was unsuitable for a takeout double, NT, or an overcall directly over 1H.

The second double does not promise any particular number of hearts or of spades (has to have a couple of spades though), but an opening hand with hearts is a definite possibility.

[karlson]

I think it shows a very good heart holding since without one you know the opps will run to 2♥ anyway, and is somewhat ambiguous about spades though usually not with a stiff. So I guess more or less what Fluffy said, except I think ♠xx is not a problem.

[whereagles]

Nilz, on Oct 6 2010, 07:00 PM, said:

P-1♥-P-P-
x-1♠-x

Do you agree that this double shows a penalty pass of hearts?

I play it the Robson/Segal way:

"Delayed dbls are take out of the 2nd suit (penalty of the 1st) unless LHO passed and pard took positive action in his turn."

This falls into the 'unless' part, so it's pure take out.

[ggwhiz]

It means I'm leading a low spade (at least twice) and killing them in the heart suit.

By previously discussed agreement though. Very tough if it's a pick up partner.

[655321]

whereagles, on Oct 8 2010, 12:37 PM, said:

I play it the Robson/Segal way:

"Delayed dbls are take out of the 2nd suit (penalty of the 1st) unless LHO passed and pard took positive action in his turn."

This falls into the 'unless' part, so it's pure take out.

What about the other Robson/Segal way:

(d) Partner has made a take-out double, then RHO bids one of the unbid suits

Quote

partner was hoping you could bid the suit your RHO has just bid. It seems clear that you should be able to double that bid for penalties - particularly as RHO will sometime psyche in these positions.

[Zelandakh]

whereagles, on Oct 8 2010, 05:37 PM, said:

I play it the Robson/Segal way:

"Delayed dbls are take out of the 2nd suit (penalty of the 1st) unless LHO passed and pard took positive action in his turn."

This falls into the 'unless' part, so it's pure take out.

You are confusing the auction
1H - p - p - X
1S - X
with the auction
1H - p - 1N - p
2C - X

In the former case the Robson way is for the double to show spades; in the latter the double is take-out of clubs and penalty of hearts. I would regard this as something close to 'standard'.

[nige1]

Nilz, on Oct 6 2010, 02:00 PM, said:

P-1♥-P-P-
x-1♠-x
Do you agree that this double shows a penalty pass of hearts? What does it say about spades- takeout oriented (say a 0634 shape or similar) or penalty oriented (say a 4522 shape or similar)? Or does it just show a penalty pass of hearts and ask partner to do something intelligent (say a 2623 shape or similar)?

Unless you have an unusual agreement, IMO this should show opening values, at least four hearts and two or three spades.

[peachy]

whereagles, on Oct 8 2010, 12:37 PM, said:

Nilz, on Oct 6 2010, 07:00 PM, said:

P-1♥-P-P-
x-1♠-x

Do you agree that this double shows a penalty pass of hearts?

I play it the Robson/Segal way:

"Delayed dbls are take out of the 2nd suit (penalty of the 1st) unless LHO passed and pard took positive action in his turn."

This falls into the 'unless' part, so it's pure take out.

I am suspecting a misunderstanding somewhere about what Robson-Segal are actually saying. I don't have the text.

[whereagles]

Right. Here's the catch: there is a slight overlap between both definitions, whose exact form are (taken from the book)

1. a delayed double is for penalties of RHO’s first suit (take-out of his second suit, if relevant), except when RHO was the
opening bidder and partner has taken positive action on the first round.

2. [dbl is penalties when] Partner has made a take-out double, then RHO bids one of the unbid suits

(I got the citation of 1 a bit skewed on my post above.) You can fit our situation

1♥ pass pass dbl
1♠ dbl

into any of the above rules. What I normally do is follow the 1st rule because I don't quite agree with the 2nd. Reason: if I have spades, I just bid 2♠ and if I have minors I'd like to be able to dbl for take-out again.

Agree, though, the 2nd interpretation is a common one and perfectly ok.

[Flameous]

I think this is basically just responsive double, around 10+HCP and both minors. Of course it includes hands with penalty for hearts but that comes up a lot more rarely. However it's good idea to count heart stopper for it, so T/O doubler should bid 1NT with spades.

[Fluffy]

mmm did OP change the hand? I remember the 1♥ bid as an overcall. Maybe I just missread, then I apologice, double of 1♠ on this situation is not penalty of hearts.

[nige1]

Fluffy, on Oct 9 2010, 05:16 PM, said:

mmm did OP change the hand? I remember the 1♥ bid as an overcall. Maybe I just missread, then I apologice, double of 1♠ on this situation is not penalty of hearts.

You pass RHO's 1♥ opening bid. Having passed initially, partner bravely protects with a double. Presumably partner has spades but RHO surprises you by retreating to 1♠. What is the logical meaning of double here...

• You and partner both have less than opening values and ...
  • ... ♠ but you don't want RHO to play in your suit?
    
  • ... Minors but want to confirm their major fit to opponents; and ensure that declarer can play double-dummy?
  
  
• ... Or you have an opening-bid with ♥-values and think it may be your hand (for at least a partscore -- but, on a good day, for game or a sizeable penalty)?

[whereagles]

nigel, regardless of what makes more sense, you need a simple rule for delayed take-out dbls, like for instance RS #1 or #2. Otherwise it's just a matter of time before you or pard interpret stuff differently and a mix-up occurs.

[hanp]

Double shows spades for me, just as in 1H - Dbl - 1S - Dbl.

[the hog]

With S of course you have an easy 2S bid. Double for me shows both minors.