[jmcw]

Playing precision club (1♣ = 15/17 balanced or 17+) with 2/1, How many of these hands would you open 1M in 1st or 2nd seat?

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If you call 1M on 3 or more then I have another question for you.

Now, over 1S you hold an average 12 count with no immediate fit, (Qx KQx Kxxxx Qx)(xx AKxx Jxx KJxx) Will you make a GF 2/1 or do you require 13 or 14?

I really want to know because my partner argues all the above should be opened regardless of vul and any good 12 and all 13+ point responding hands can insist on game. I'm not convinced but trying to keep an open mind!

Tx to all who reply.

[Flameous]

I open all of them. Might pass number 3 if there are no spots at all.
I play 15+ 1♣ so my openings are 10-14 and we usually require 14+ for 2/1 response, bit less with fit of course.
I wouldn't 2/1 any balanced 12 count without fit, it just seems to hurt more than help. Of course 10-16 is quite a different range compared to 10-14 and I guess your opening bid holds almost half a point more strength on average so it might pay of to 2/1 all 13 counts at least.

[JLOGIC]

1/2/4 look like opening bids in any system to me.

I would open #5 in precision, and I would open 1S on #3 if we were white in first seat and my partnership allowed it, would never open it vul. I definitely wouldn't open if my partner game forced with any 12 though!

If you want to open light you cannot GF with random 12s.

[gwnn]

the third and fifth are super sick. I'd open them a 10-12 NT but nothing else.

[655321]

Even playing 2/1 I would open all of them except (3), playing strong club I might open (3) as well, anyway I would open it w/r.
Your partner's rule sounds good to me - force to game on all good 12s and all 13+.

I have occasionally seen some people claim that because they 'open light', they don't force to game as responder with 13, even 14, but this is just bad bridge. I am not talking here about some 8-12 type of opening system, just natural systems or normal strong club systems with (10) 11-15 type openings.

[spotlight7]

HI:

Welcome to the Dark Side.

I used to play a fairly decent Precision version where we

opened decent 11s with shape and passed flat 11 counts.

Now I open all reasonable 10 counts including NT types.

The style does involve some problems, however, the problems are more often caused to the other pair.

1C*=16+. 14-16=1NT and other bids show 10-15.

I did make some adjustments in my bidding. It seems to have improved the bidding rather than make it harder(most of the time anyway)

I switched to opening most 10HCP hands after reading Robson/Segal book. They use a 'passed hand' 2NT bid to show hands that "are not inviting in NT." To avoid a problem, I open any hand that might want to invite in NT.

May you enjoy the Dark Side.

Regards,
Robert

[rduran1216]

I would never open #3 in first or second seat though, especially not vul.

#5 is close, but I would open it because of the easy rebid, and would definitely rather be playing precision as I open 5

[awm]

If you're going to play a style where you open a lot of 11s and some 10s (which I think is a good style, especially with a strong club base) then you really can't game force opposite with random non-fitting 12s. In such a style the example hands you are giving are 1NT (forcing or semi-forcing) responses to 1♠. If your style is that you do expect partner to game force with basically all 12-counts, then I would pass all the example hands!

Under a reasonable slightly-light style where partner needs 13 to game force on a non-fitting flat hand, I think it's clear to open 1,2,4. The other two are borderline, with 5 being more tempting if I can pass a 1NT response (i.e. semi-forcing notrump).

[mike777]

note if you open alot of ten point hands..then many same will open some 9 pt hands and a few 8pt hands.......in that kind of style...so I only gf with 14.
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otoh if you are not opening those than ok.....this advice makes alot of sense.

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in any event agree in general what a 2/1 gf hand shows.....whatever

[jjbrr]

5 seems sick to me. i also wouldnt open 3.

[aguahombre]

1 and 2, any system except RS. 3, 4 and 5 only in strong club context.

Just an opinion, not dogma. And yes, pard needs 13 to GF our opening bids, and we don't have strong club.

[Fluffy]

2&4 always, 1 in first, probably in second too but its a bit closer.

[hanp]

I'd open 4 of these hands playing precision.

[cwiggins]

Assume that you open almost all 11 HCP hands with 5+ long M. This posting supports the comments elsewhere that GF with 13+ HCP (or 12 HCP with a fit) is a good bidding strategy.

Claim 1: Opposite such a Precision opener, forcing to game with 12 HCP over 1M and no fit for partner's major is more likely to get you to the wrong contract than inviting with such a hand.

Assume that you use a 14-16 1NT opening so that your 1M opening is all hands with 11-13 with 5+ cards in the M and 14-15 HCP hands with 5+ in the M but not 5332.

Since I'm not at home where I have done this precise calculation, but a rough calculation for 1H is
    About 12.5% of 11, 12, and 13 HCP hands open 1H
    About 8.7% of 14 and 15 HCP hands open 1H. (The different percentage is because 5332 hands with 14 and 15 HCP are opened 1NT.)

Using these rough percentages against the probability of 11, 12, etc. HCP, the result is that when partner opens 1H, partner holds 11 HCP about 29% of the time.

I've used DealMaster to look at hands where opener opens 1H with 11 HCP and responder has 0-2 hearts and 12 HCP. Game contracts are highly likely to fail.

So forcing to game with a misfitting 12 HCP means that about 29% of the time, you are placing a losing bet.

OTOH, if you invite with 12 HCP and no fit, you get to the wrong spot (neither over nor underbidding) about 10% of the time. That's much better.

Judgment plays a role, so with 12 HCP that are better because of texture, tenaces, etc, forcing to game is okay. For example, over 1♠, I would force to game with:
♠10x
♥KQx
♦AQJ10x
♣xx
Because this hand is worth more than 12 HCP.

Claim 2: Opposite such a Precision opener, if you have a fit for partner's major and 12 HCP, forcing to game works best.

I haven't done as much research with this class of hands. But limited simulations show a couple of wholly unsurprising exceptions to this. First, if responder is 4333 with 3-card support, an invition is best. Second, if responder has a doubleton with lots of waste, (e.g. QJ, KQ, etc.) an invitation works best. These two exceptions apply judgment in a standard fashion: you downgrade a hand because it is not worth as much as the HCP add up to.

[mike777]

cwiggins, on Sep 17 2010, 11:08 PM, said:

Assume that you open almost all 11 HCP hands with 5+ long M.  This posting supports the comments elsewhere that GF with 13+ HCP (or 12 HCP with a fit) is a good bidding strategy.

Claim 1: Opposite such a Precision opener, forcing to game with 12 HCP over 1M and no fit for partner's major is more likely to get you to the wrong contract than inviting with such a hand.

Assume that you use a 14-16 1NT opening so that your 1M opening is all hands with 11-13 with 5+ cards in the M and 14-15 HCP hands with 5+ in the M but not 5332. 

Since I'm not at home where I have done this precise calculation, but a rough calculation for 1H is
    About 12.5% of 11, 12, and 13 HCP hands open 1H
    About 8.7% of 14 and 15 HCP hands open 1H.  (The different percentage is because 5332 hands with 14 and 15 HCP are opened 1NT.)

Using these rough percentages against the probability of 11, 12, etc. HCP, the result is that when partner opens 1H, partner holds 11 HCP about 29% of the time. 

I've used DealMaster to look at hands where opener opens 1H with 11 HCP and responder has 0-2 hearts and 12 HCP.  Game contracts are highly likely to fail.

So forcing to game with a misfitting 12 HCP means that about 29% of the time, you are placing a losing bet.

OTOH, if you invite with 12 HCP and no fit, you get to the wrong spot (neither over nor underbidding) about 10% of the time.  That's much better.

Judgment plays a role, so with 12 HCP that are better because of texture, tenaces, etc, forcing to game is okay.  For example, over 1♠, I would force to game with:
♠10x
♥KQx
♦AQJ10x
♣xx
Because this hand is worth more than 12 HCP.

Claim 2: Opposite such a Precision opener, if you have a fit for partner's major and 12 HCP, forcing to game works best. 

I haven't done as much research with this class of hands.  But limited simulations show a couple of wholly unsurprising exceptions to this.  First, if responder is 4333 with 3-card support, an invition is best.  Second, if responder has a doubleton with lots of waste, (e.g. QJ, KQ, etc.) an invitation works best.  These two exceptions apply judgment in a standard fashion: you downgrade a hand because it is not worth as much as the HCP add up to.

Assume your assume


fwiw....gf =14+ not 13....pard can have really crap


I mean less than 10-11 sometimes

[FrancesHinden]

JLOGIC, on Sep 16 2010, 12:38 AM, said:

If you want to open light you cannot GF with random 12s.

Maybe I'm missing a subtle point in this thread, but I don't understand the point of this discussion. If you work on the general assumption that (unless you have a good fit somewhere or extra shape) you need 24+ HCP between the hands for game, then if you open most 10-11 points, you need 14+ HCP to game force if you have nothing special. This doesn't seem very controversial.

FWIW on the rare occasion I play a strong 1C/1D opening, I like to play my other openings as about 9-15 i.e. opening all 5332 9-counts NV (subject to what local regulations permit). One of the advantages of the limited opening is that you get to open lots and lots more hands.

[jmcw]

cwiggins, on Sep 17 2010, 11:08 PM, said:

Assume that you use a 14-16 1NT opening so that your 1M opening is all hands with 11-13 with 5+ cards in the M and 14-15 HCP hands with 5+ in the M but not 5332. 

Cannot make that assumption at least not in my case!. We are using 12/14 NT, so if balanced our Major opening will be 10/11. With a balaanced 15/17 we open 1C and rebid NT to show this range.
This means our 1M will be 10/11 if 5332 or 10/16 if unbalanced.

[cherdanno]

FrancesHinden, on Sep 18 2010, 01:56 PM, said:

JLOGIC, on Sep 16 2010, 12:38 AM, said:

If you want to open light you cannot GF with random 12s.

Maybe I'm missing a subtle point in this thread, but I don't understand the point of this discussion. If you work on the general assumption that (unless you have a good fit somewhere or extra shape) you need 24+ HCP between the hands for game, then if you open most 10-11 points, you need 14+ HCP to game force if you have nothing special. This doesn't seem very controversial.

I think there are 2 points here - one was that most posters weren't assuming a style where you open most 10 counts, only those with a little shape (such as hand 5 and maybe hand 3).
There is another point though (that awm makes quite frequently) - when you open all 10 counts then you are more likely to have one hcp extra than when you open all 13 counts. So it might be consistent to force to game with 13 counts opposite a 10+ opening style, but require 11+ to force to gmae opposite a 13+ opening style. (Not that I know anyone who plays the latter.)

[cwiggins]

Quote

Assume your assume

fwiw....gf =14+ not 13....pard can have really crap

I mean less than 10-11 sometime

It depends on what your opening standards are. A more complete statement of my assumption is that you are using a rule of 20. If so, then partner will open with less than 11 HCP only with 10 or more cards in the long suits (5-5, 6-4, etc.) That extra length usually provides extra tricks. In these situation, 13+ HCP is enough.

But if you use rule of 19 (or 18) openings, then yes, the GF limit needs to be higher than it is for rule of 20 openings. The question is: how much? Folk wisdom is that that 12 opposite 12 plays better than 15 opposite 9. 11 opposite 13 is close to 12 opposite 12 but 14 opposite 10 is close to the 15 opposite 9.

[Mbodell]

awm, on Sep 15 2010, 07:52 PM, said:

If you're going to play a style where you open a lot of 11s and some 10s (which I think is a good style, especially with a strong club base) then you really can't game force opposite with random non-fitting 12s. In such a style the example hands you are giving are 1NT (forcing or semi-forcing) responses to 1♠. If your style is that you do expect partner to game force with basically all 12-counts, then I would pass all the example hands!

I play a strong club style where we open hands that are (8+)10-15 and 2/1 gf. If we have a 5 card major we either open 1nt (variable mini/weak) or 1M. We require a good 13 to game force without a fit. We play a semi-forcing nt that is a good 8 to bad 13.

But the basic point stands, the weaker your openings the sounder your 2/1 needs to be.