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Choosing Between 4S and 5C?

#1 User is offline   gurgistan 

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Posted 2010-September-29, 20:01

Scoring: IMP

In uncontested auction the bidding goes:

I open 2nd seat with 1. Partner bids 1. I raise his fit to 2. Partner jumps to 4. I do not know what this means. I bid 4 showing my first round control. We are a somewhat established partnerhip and partner knows that having agreed a suit new bids tend to show first or second round controls whilst under game level. Partner bids 4N RKB1430. I bid 5 showing two controls without the Queen of trumps. Partner bids 5N asking for kings. I respond 5 showing no Kings. Partner bids 6. It is passed out.

Questions:
1. What does partner's 4 show once we have agreed the major? During the post mortem partner claimed he was giving me the choice of bidding 4 or 5! Why would I choose 5 over 4? More tricks to make for fewer points. Do turkeys vote for Christmas?

2. What would my partner have thought my 4 meant? He claimed this caused him to bid on beyond game.

3. Was partners 5N reckless as this is a grand slam try and he should have all 5 keycards and the Queen of trumps accounted for?

Please make any other pertinent comments upon the bidding.

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#2 User is offline   bucky 

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Posted 2010-September-29, 20:44

You didn't tell us what is your method after 1 1 2. Does partner have a game-forcing bid at 3-level? Does your partnership allow 3-card raise to 2? If the answer is yes, do you have method to check for 3 or 4-card raise?

For now I will just offer some opinions without knowing your specific agreements (which is a dangerous thing to do):

1) You need agreement for 4. I prefer this bid to show good spades and good clubs (but typically without 5th spade, since otherwise I would start with strong jump shift). But there can be so many other ways to play it, including using it as splinter agreeing spades. It is also playable to use it as choice of game (especially if opener can have 5 clubs and 3 spades), as your partner suggested, although it seems a rather inefficient treatment. If it is merely COG, the 4NT bid from your partner is somewhat inconsistent.

2) 4 is a control bid. As partner's hand is unlimited, and 4 seems a strong bid, I think 4 by you is mandatory.

3) A typical beginner mistake is to bid 5N even if missing one keycard (it's like: I know we only have small slam, but since I don't get to bid 5NT often, this is my chance to fool around). But your partner did even worse than that. He shouldn't even bid 6 missing 1 keycard and trump Q, let alone trying for grand.
 
 
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#3 User is offline   gurgistan 

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Posted 2010-September-29, 21:14

bucky, on Sep 29 2010, 09:44 PM, said:

You didn't tell us what is your method after 1 1 2. Does partner have a game-forcing bid at 3-level? Does your partnership allow 3-card raise to 2? If the answer is yes, do you have method to check for 3 or 4-card raise?

For now I will just offer some opinions without knowing your specific agreements (which is a dangerous thing to do):

1) You need agreement for 4. I prefer this bid to show good spades and good clubs (but typically without 5th spade, since otherwise I would start with strong jump shift). But there can be so many other ways to play it, including using it as splinter agreeing spades. It is also playable to use it as choice of game (especially if opener can have 5 clubs and 3 spades), as your partner suggested, although it seems a rather inefficient treatment. If it is merely COG, the 4NT bid from your partner is somewhat inconsistent.

2) 4 is a control bid. As partner's hand is unlimited, and 4 seems a strong bid, I think 4 by you is mandatory.

3) A typical beginner mistake is to bid 5N even if missing one keycard (it's like: I know we only have small slam, but since I don't get to bid 5NT often, this is my chance to fool around). But your partner did even worse than that. He shouldn't even bid 6 missing 1 keycard and trump Q, let alone trying for grand.

I have never supported responder's one level bid without four card support.

We have played a few hundred hands together. Something like that.

Partner rates himself as an Expert and indeed his card play is very good but his bidding is very optimistic at times. He suffers from a common fault found amongst strong card players (as opposed to strong bidders). He thinks his play will make up for any inaccuracy in bidding (the inaccuracy usually being over-reaching).
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#4 User is offline   bucky 

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Posted 2010-September-29, 23:06

gurgistan, on Sep 29 2010, 10:14 PM, said:

Partner rates himself as an Expert and indeed his card play is very good but his bidding is very optimistic at times. He suffers from a common fault found amongst strong card players (as opposed to strong bidders). He thinks his play will make up for any inaccuracy in bidding (the inaccuracy usually being over-reaching).

Believe me, bidding 5NT with this hand only deserves being put in 7 missing trump KQ, then even Garozzo's playing skill cannot compensate for the bidding error.
 
 
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#5 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-September-30, 03:52

I don't understand much, you bid 4 to show a first round control but you don't have first round control, and you have a diamond first round control.


Anyway 4 showing a choice between 4 and 5 is ridicoulous. You will never want to play in 5m when you have fit in a major. Furthermore, partner bid 4NT later? this is contradictional with the explanation he gave to 4.


The standard meaning for 4 is control/cuebid, showing first or second round control and slam interest. This seems to be what your partner really ahd in mind.

The expert standard meaning for 4 is splinter. Showing singleton or void and slam interest.
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#6 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2010-September-30, 03:58

Fluffy, on Sep 30 2010, 10:52 AM, said:

I don't understand much, you bid 4 to show a first round control but you don't have first round control, and you have a diamond first round control.

OP is the south hand.
Wayne Somerville
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2010-September-30, 05:14

I think your partner's comment that the 4 bid caused him to go beyond 4 is that the lack of diamond wastage looked good, J109x, Axx, xxx, AQx makes the slam good. That said, you might have xxxx so bidding a slam is barking here, he should sign off in 5.

I would bid an inverted 2 to start, which for me does not deny a 4 card major, but I play a 4 card club opener and a weak no trump, which makes this easier to sort out.

The reason he's offered you the choice of contract is that he has no clue how many clubs you have, the difference between you being 3-4 and 5-4 in - is huge. xxxx, A, xxx, AQxxx is cold for 5, but won't make 4 a decent proportion of the time.

Surely he could have bid either 3red (which suit depending on your style) or 4 over 2 which would have been more descriptive, but 4 is not bad to show 5. Whether you should bid 4 is again style dependent as to whether you need to not be flat minimum to cue here.
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#8 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2010-September-30, 05:21

manudude03, on Sep 30 2010, 09:58 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Sep 30 2010, 10:52 AM, said:

I don't understand much, you bid 4 to show a first round control but you don't have first round control, and you have a diamond first round control.

OP is the south hand.

thx, now it makes a little more sense.
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#9 User is offline   W Kovacs 

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Posted 2010-September-30, 07:45

1) I don't agree with your partner's 4 bid at all. In the absence of agreements, I would take that as a splinter, showing shortness and slam interest or a control, never a choice of games. Especially if you never raise with only 3 card support.

2) The 4 bid looks perfect. Partner is showing interest in slam, and you have the heart control to show.

3) Off a control and the Q of trump, 5NT is terrible. A signoff in 5 is certainly in order here.
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