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garbage stayman question

#1 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-September-28, 14:52

I've heard that Barry Crane used to play 1N-2C, 2D-2N as a hand with both 4 cd majors and maybe 6-7 hcp. He was trying to improve the contract at risk of going set in 2N.

At the moment, my NT structure calls for

1N-2C, 2D-2H garbage stayman
1N-2C, 2D-2S GI spades

I'm debating flipping the meaning of the 2.

1N-2C, 2D-2S garbage stayman (p/c to 2N)
1N-2C, 2D-2H GI spades OR various distributional hands that I will next show after
opener's 2S or 2N rebid.

I still get to find 4/4 major suit fits and I get to play 2S (in a 4/3 fit) when it's right. I get to show my rare but distributional hands and I get to rightside spade contracts when I'm inviting with spades. However, I obviously lose the ability to play in 4-3 heart fits.

How big a loss is that?
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#2 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-September-28, 15:20

You might also consider reversing 2S and 2NT for a similar goal. Then 2NT would be your invitational hand with spades and 2S would be either an invitational raise or various other hands. Out of interest what do you play 1N - 2H - 2S - 2N as if it is not invitational with 5 spades?

Crawling Stayman is always an extra bonus after taking account of your constructive bidding, especially after a strong NT. If you feel you can use the bid more usefully in a constructive sense then you should go for it. If you decide to use 2S in this way then you might also consider it as 4S and a longer minor as is the classic meaning for 2S in Crawling Stayman.
(-: Zel :-)
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#3 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-September-28, 15:33

Zelandakh, on Sep 28 2010, 04:20 PM, said:

You might also consider reversing 2S and 2NT for a similar goal. Then 2NT would be your invitational hand with spades and 2S would be either an invitational raise or various other hands. Out of interest what do you play 1N - 2H - 2S - 2N as if it is not invitational with 5 spades?

Crawling Stayman is always an extra bonus after taking account of your constructive bidding, especially after a strong NT. If you feel you can use the bid more usefully in a constructive sense then you should go for it. If you decide to use 2S in this way then you might also consider it as 4S and a longer minor as is the classic meaning for 2S in Crawling Stayman.

I use 1N-2H, 2S-2N as GF with spades. I borrowed this and its continuations from Klinger.

I pretty much need 1N-2C, 2D-2N as GI and switching that with the 2S rebid would mostly prevent me from trying to play in a 4-3 fit.

I forget how Crawling Stayman works...
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#4 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2010-September-28, 16:00

If 1N-2-2-2 is garbage stayman then you are in the wrong contract when opener has two spades and three hearts unless responder is 54. So you can't use it with 45 unless you are 4540 and willing to pass 2, and also with 5-5 majors it is not so attractive to use it.
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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#5 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-September-28, 16:08

helene_t, on Sep 28 2010, 05:00 PM, said:

If 1N-2-2-2 is garbage stayman then you are in the wrong contract when opener has two spades and three hearts unless responder is 54. So you can't use it with 45 unless you are 4540 and willing to pass 2, and also with 5-5 majors it is not so attractive to use it.

Yeah. I'd have to just transfer to hearts with 4S/5H as well. Anyone think rightsiding the GI spade hands makes a difference? I've heard that might be worth half a trick or so on average.
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#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-September-28, 16:22

straube, on Sep 28 2010, 09:33 PM, said:

I use 1N-2H, 2S-2N as GF with spades. I borrowed this and its continuations from Klinger.

I pretty much need 1N-2C, 2D-2N as GI and switching that with the 2S rebid would mostly prevent me from trying to play in a 4-3 fit.

I forget how Crawling Stayman works...

I personally use a little trick to achieve that...

1NT - 2H - 2S - 3C = diamonds or 6+ spades, SI
Now
3D = 4+ diamonds (3S now says spades)
3H = no fit for either suit (3S now says spades)
3S = spade fit

A similar trick works for hearts after 1NT - 2D - 2H - 2S (for me a range ask incorporating an invite with 5 hearts or a slam try with 6+ hearts).

I see now that your GI sequence is 4-5 spades similar to Keri. I had assumed in my last post that 2S was showing 5. The difference here is that Opener has already denied 4 spades so I do not see this as a big advantage. If you do, though, then you do indeed have to keep your spade invite at 2H or 2S. In that case whether Crawling Stayman or the extra hand types you get into 2H are more important to you comes down to personal choice. The more invitational and game forcing hands you want to incorporate at the 2 level the more likely it is that you need to abandon Crawling Stayman.

Crawling (or Creeping) Stayman is the proper name for what alot of Americans seem to call Garbage Stayman. The latter was originally a designation of non-forcing Stayman, where the Stayman bidder does not promise another bid. It basically uses 1NT - 2C - 2D - 2M for pass/correct runouts...

1NT - 2C - 2D
2H = 4 hearts, 4 spades or longer minor
2S = 4 spades, 0-3 hearts, longer minor

This is usually accompanied by using 3C as Extended Stayman. It is quite rare for a pair to play the full convention these days.
(-: Zel :-)
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#7 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-September-28, 16:28

Thanks for the Crawling Stayman explanation. I can see how it could be useful.

Just to clarify but right now...
1N-2C, 2D-2S shows 5S and GI

and I'm proposing...
1N-2C, 2D-2H shows 5S GI or other various patterns that will be revealed later.

Also proposing that
1N-2C, 2D-2S would show 4S/4H and probably 6-8 hcp or so (less than an invite)
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#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2010-September-28, 16:38

OK so I was right the first time and the GI sequence does show 5 spades. So just to clarify the earlier suggestion...

1NT - 2C - 2D - 2H = Crawling Stayman
1NT - 2C - 2D - 2S = range ask, natural 2NT bid or various other hands
1NT - 2C - 2D - 2NT = GI with 5 spades

You could also switch the last sequence with your GF spades one to give 1NT - 2H - 2S - 2NT back its natural meaning. Obviously this does lose the ability to play in 2S when declining the invite. That is going to be the cost of giving up the ability to play in 2H on a weak hand with 4 hearts unless there happens to be space somewhere else in the structure for those extra hands you want to include into 2H.
(-: Zel :-)
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#9 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-September-28, 19:28

Well, I guess I'd like the ability to play 2S when I'm GI in spades. I also need the 3-level starting with 3C for my relays...so if 1N-2C, 2D-2S showed ostensibly GI balanced then opener would presumably have to accept game with a bid of 3C.

I think I like the structure I laid out. I'm just wondering how people feel about losing the ability to garbage stayman and then not be able to play a 4-3 heart fit. I think it's an acceptable loss as frequently 2N will be more playable and score higher, but I think at least one person here feels differently.
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#10 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-September-29, 01:14

I've abandoned the idea. The frequency of hands that would benefit from garbage stayman is very high. Thanks for the input.
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