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strong club bidding forum question

#1 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2010-September-24, 23:38

Scoring: IMP

                  1
1 - x - 3 - ?


1 16+, x = 5-8 any (others GF)

I guess your choices are

1. Pass if it's forcing
2. Pass whether it's forcing or not (I think not)
3. X
4. 3NT
5. 3
6. Change system so that semis describe here and GF hands X 1.

PS. In my view, there is too much on theory in this group and not enough on judgement. Feel free to flame on that.
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#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2010-September-24, 23:49

I'd rather be playing different methods, where hands show shape rather than "points" in competitive sequences.

With that said, if pass is forcing then I think this is an obvious pass. Of course, I don't see a really strong logical reason that pass should be forcing in this auction and probably wouldn't have that agreement (although it happens to help on this particular hand).

Assuming pass is NF, I'll try double, planning to convert 3 to 3NT (hopefully showing doubt). If partner bids 4 it should be a five-bagger here (his strength is pretty limited, so why jump around unless he has extra shape?) and I'll pass it and hope for the best.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#3 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2010-September-25, 00:37

I'll try the nf pass.

I'm assuming that dbl by either of us is takeout. I don't have takeout shape (dbl may well lead to 4S which may not be our best spot). I don't necessarily have a diamond stopper (or 9 consecutive tricks) and I've bid all but 4 of my hcps already.

Partner very likely has the shape to act here and having limited his hand already, he should stretch to do so. He is likely to have one diamond for instance. He could balance with...

dbl in which case I'll chance 4H (though pass might be better).
3H in which case I have an easy raise
3S in which case I'll bid 4D to show doubt and see if he can name hearts or clubs.
.....If he retreats to spades, that is likely better than 3N.
4C in which case I'll also bid 4D to see if he can name hearts.

Sometimes partner won't be able to act and we'll miss game and other times we won't be disappointed to be defending 3D.
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#4 User is online   spotlight7 

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Posted 2010-September-25, 03:18

shevek, on Sep 25 2010, 12:38 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

                  1
1 - x - 3 - ?


1 16+, x = 5-8 any (others GF)

I guess your choices are

1. Pass if it's forcing
2. Pass whether it's forcing or not (I think not)
3. X
4. 3NT
5. 3
6. Change system so that semis describe here and GF hands X 1.

PS. In my view, there is too much on theory in this group and not enough on judgement. Feel free to flame on that.


Hi:

1) and 2) Pass should not be forcing.

3) You are unlikely to want to defend so doubling is not the message you want to send.

4) I would expect that they would cash the first 5-6 Diamonds after a diamond lead to the king(Ace?) and a D back. 3NT is very likely quickly going down.

5) Bidding a suit here suggests 5 in a big club framework, so that suggests 'not' showing a suit here.

6) Change the system appears to be the winner here. :blink:

I strongly prefer to use my judgement, however, the system appears to be the major problem here.

Regards,
Robert
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#5 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2010-September-26, 08:33

I play 1C force with forcing pass ON below 2S --trust a partial can be found, and above 3S --trust 1C force has 4DTs. But best guess on 3-level.

Also partner's double suggests he has useful cards without a clear where-to-play suggestion (not simply 6-8hcp). And a little leeway for positives in majors over interference --I didn't hear that in this auction. I double now as some good chance that is our top score.
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#6 User is offline   bigtrain 

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Posted 2010-September-26, 17:00

Hands like this show why it's best to break up the balanced ranges by using 2NT as natural. I would strongly recommend opening 2NT with this and similar hands.
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#7 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-September-27, 00:48

6 ofcourse ;)
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#8 User is offline   CamHenry 

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Posted 2010-September-27, 04:05

Put me down for 6. Actually, I play that sort of method already.

Absent that, I am tempted by 3NT. It's a bit of an overbid but I'm a bit of an overbidder.

(Also, BigTrain's suggestion of putting (e.g.) 20-22 balanced through a different opening has a lot of merit. If you're allowed multi-way openings, try that (e.g. 2C either precision or 20-22 bal))
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#9 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2010-September-27, 15:36

Oh, so another random point or two is going to make this any different - 1C-1D-x(random GF)-3D? It makes pass forcing, sure, but it makes 3NT scary (even with DAxx instead of Qxx +690 scores *so* well).

If I pass, partner is going to play me for a balanced 17-19; I think I have to do something. Double sounds flexible, but I'm going to hate partner's automatic 3S. 3H is a nice practical call, because it will probably get raised on 3 and the tap's in the short hand (provided it is short - I've seen this auction with a 4-4 diamond break).

This hand sucks - we know that. Precision sucks when you open 1C and the auction's at the 3 level before your rebid - we know that too. It's not as if this is a happy auction playing standard (with an old-fashioned 22-24 2NT opener, of course) - 1C-1D-x-3D, unless your double *promises* 4-4 in the majors (and if it does, then 1C-1D-1S-3D is more comfortable, but not much).
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#10 User is offline   mikegill 

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Posted 2010-September-27, 22:41

I guess this hand could be an advertisement either for or against strong 2N depending on how it turns out. You may have given yourself a chance to avoid a no-play 3NT if they have running diamonds. However, you have traded that chance for an awkward decision here. Your hand is good enough to warrant action but no action really seems right. Yes, if pass were forcing then I think it's clear to pass, but I don't think it is. If you bid 3NT and they run the first 5 diamonds you'll feel really silly, but if you double and pull 3 to 3NT partner may pull when opening leader had AKxxx and you were cold (or they have only 8 diamonds like they sometimes do). Either way you could be wrong. I think I would double and take my chance on getting to a heart fit since the other table will have opened 2N and found a heart fit if one exists. Hopefully partner gets the decision right after I pull 3 to 3N.
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#11 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2010-September-28, 08:12

Obvious double and pull (3) to 3NT. Seriously, what else can we do? Pass isn't forcing. 3 shows 5 and isn't forcing. Partner will pass a direct 3NT with 5-1 in the red suits.
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#12 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2010-September-28, 08:32

Larry and I play system on, so the double is major centric; 3. 3NT is not what's for dinner.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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