[hanp]

We didn't get to the optimal contract on these hands:

AKQxx
xxx
xxx
10x

Jx
AQ10x
AKJ109
Jx

Our auction was:

1D - 1S
2H - 2S (forcing)
3D - 4D
5D, all pass.

Some might open 1NT with the south hand, but also then it is not clear how to get to 4S. How do you think the auction should proceed after the reverse?

[JLOGIC]

Umm, south should bid FOUR SPADES?! hanp wtf are these problems lately. South has Jx.

[hanp]

I thought so too but I had more questions. For example, should south's third bid be 2NT or 3D? I wasn't sure.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 1D - clear cut, sry 5-4 shape, Jx in both side suits, that are at best
2 flaws, usually I would count this as 3 flaws.
#2 The alternative to 2S is 3C, I am not very familar with the style 2S
forcing, so ..., but if 2S is forcing, than 2S is certainly ok.
The only downside I see is, that 2S does not create a GF.
#3 3D is certainly ok, the alternative being 3C - FSF.
#4 The alternative to 4D is 3H, if 3D does not promise 6-4, than
the adv. of 3H is, that you keep staying below 3NT.
#5 After 4D I doubt, that you will end up in 5D.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ArtK78]

The opening hand seems like a very light reverse.

Personally, I would rebid 2♦. A little heavy, but not egregiously so.

But, given some of the hands that players are opening while allegedly playing "Standard," I guess this must be a rock crusher.

Worst case scenario - North passes 2♦. Not the best contract, but better than 5♦. If North rebids 2♠, which seems reasonable, 4♠ will be reached.

[jdonn]

hanp, on Sep 22 2010, 02:11 AM, said:

I thought so too but I had more questions. For example, should south's third bid be 2NT or 3D? I wasn't sure.

I like 2NT to show the nature of my hand. I also like the logic that 2NT could be the best available contract remaining and there is no other way to reach it at this point. Also it preserves the purity of 3♦ on your auction showing 6, not that it should work out too badly to bid it on such a good 5 card suit though.

I open 1NT in any case which might have worked quite badly here.

[gszeszycki]

We didn't get to the optimal contract on these hands:

AKQxx
xxx
xxx
10x

Jx
AQ10x
AKJ109
Jx

Our auction was:

1D - 1S
2H - 2S (forcing)
3D - 4D
5D, all pass.

Some might open 1NT with the south hand, but also then it is not clear how to get to 4S. How do you think the auction should proceed after the reverse?

the reverse is a tad light but hardly worst bidding ever. The following sequence makes the bidding simple

1d normal
1s normal
2h reverse a tad light but ok
3s supposed to show 6 but AKQxx easily as good as Axxxxx and allows opener to
more easily choose btn 3s and 3n. There is no strong reason to bid dia atm if
opener cannot bid either 3s or 3n they will follow with 4d (which we raise to 5)
or 5d which we pass.
4s simple

we upgrade support like QJ being as good as xxx but we sometimes forget to upgrade suits with superb quality (like the spades in N hand)

If S were to bid 4c over our 3s bid (which opener might do with either Jx or xxx) I would follow with 5d which denies a control but shows the double fit and a good enough spade suit to consider slam.

[hanp]

I don't understand how you can open 1D but not reverse. Either you open 1NT, or you open 1D and reverse, I don't think any other approach is reasonable.

[gwnn]

gszeszycki, try the "quote" button at the top of the opening post, it is a wonderful tool

[ArtK78]

hanp, on Sep 22 2010, 12:53 PM, said:

I don't understand how you can open 1D but not reverse. Either you open 1NT, or you open 1D and reverse, I don't think any other approach is reasonable.

Either the hand is worth a reverse or it isn't. Whether your choice of opening bid is 1♦ or 1NT is an entirely different matter.

Personally, I don't like the idea of opening 1NT on a nearly pure two-suited hand. But that doesn't mean it is good enough to reverse after opening 1♦.

I am willing to have a little in reserve for my opening bid and rebid.

Just out of curiosity, what would you open if your hand were:

xx
AQTx
AKT9x
xx

And, assuming that you opened 1♦, what would you rebid if partner responded 1♠?

This hand is clearly not as good as your hand, but it is not much worse. I don't think the difference should be the difference between a minimum rebid and a reverse.

[hanp]

I don't understand the last sentence. At some point the hand becomes too good for a minimum rebid and it becomes good enough for a reverse. If you move close enough to the dividing line, a single jack can be the difference between a minimu rebid and a reverse.

You gave a very nice and pure 13-count. I would not mind rebidding 2D on that hand. The hand I gave has three extra jacks. Two of the jacks are not so valuable, but they make opening 1NT a lot more reasonable. The diamond jack is a big card. I don't think these 3 HCP make for a small difference. I also think that rebidding 2D on a 16-count when there are two good alternatives is reasonable.

[rogerclee]

ArtK78, on Sep 22 2010, 11:51 AM, said:

xx
AQTx
AKT9x
xx
...
This hand is clearly not as good as your hand, but it is not much worse.

LOL

[JLOGIC]

I hate rebidding 2N with no stopper in the unbid suit. I'm fine opening 1N with no stopper but once we've bid 3 suits I think it's important to have a stopper in the 4th suit to bid NT.

I would consider souths options raising to 3S or bidding 3D, I would almost always raise to 3S with 2452 and no club stopper and a min but with such chunky diamonds and only Jx of spades I understand 3D. I'd probably have bid 3S though.

[mikeh]

It'll surprise no one when I say that I wouldn't have reversed. I might have opened 1N as South, precisely because I'd hate the 2♦ rebid.....obviously this might be a good method for an artificial 2♣ stall over 1♠.....

Had I opened 1N, then after a transfer and either 3N or 2N, south has a tough decision...clearly not passing 2N, but do we bid spades or hope for some club help (xxx might be enough on some layouts)?

I don't see me ever getting to 4♠ with any pretence that our partnership knew what it was doing.

BTW reading this forum has got me lowering the requirements for a reverse a tad, but not enough to do it here.

As for counter examples.....what would we do with J AQ10x AKJ10x Jxx?

I know I'd bid 2♣, intending to bid 2N over 2♦ (I'd bid 2♥ over 2♦ if we didn't play meckwell).

[junyi_zhu]

hanp, on Sep 22 2010, 06:45 AM, said:

We didn't get to the optimal contract on these hands:

AKQxx
xxx
xxx
10x

Jx
AQ10x
AKJ109
Jx

Our auction was:

1D - 1S
2H - 2S (forcing)
3D - 4D
5D, all pass.

Some might open 1NT with the south hand, but also then it is not clear how to get to 4S. How do you think the auction should proceed after the reverse?

If 2S is gf, you can bid 3C to show doubt in 3NT. It doesn't make a lot of sense to play 3C as natural here. Then it would be rather straightforward:
....
3C 3D
3S 4S

[bucky]

mikeh, on Sep 22 2010, 03:38 PM, said:

As for counter examples.....what would we do with J AQ10x AKJ10x Jxx?

I know I'd bid 2♣, intending to bid 2N over 2♦ (I'd bid 2♥ over 2♦ if we didn't play meckwell).

I don't quite get it. If you are good enough to bid 2♣ then bid 2NT over 2♦, you should be good enough to reverse on strength.

[bucky]

junyi_zhu, on Sep 22 2010, 03:55 PM, said:

If 2S is gf, you can bid 3C to show doubt in 3NT. It doesn't make a lot of sense to play 3C as natural here. Then it would be rather straightforward:
....
3C 3D
3S 4S

But most don't play 2♠ as gf.

[junyi_zhu]

bucky, on Sep 22 2010, 09:00 PM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Sep 22 2010, 03:55 PM, said:

If 2S is gf, you can bid 3C to show doubt in 3NT. It doesn't make a lot of sense to play 3C as natural here. Then it would be rather straightforward:
....
3C 3D
3S 4S

But most don't play 2♠ as gf.

Then they should have a gf bid to show spades. It's not easy to handle both gf and nongf hands with the same bid.

[mikeh]

junyi_zhu, on Sep 22 2010, 04:29 PM, said:

bucky, on Sep 22 2010, 09:00 PM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Sep 22 2010, 03:55 PM, said:

If 2S is gf, you can bid 3C to show doubt in 3NT. It doesn't make a lot of sense to play 3C as natural here. Then it would be rather straightforward:
....
3C 3D
3S 4S

But most don't play 2♠ as gf.

Then they should have a gf bid to show spades. It's not easy to handle both gf and nongf hands with the same bid.

it isn't??????

I respond 1♠ to 1♦ with all ranges of hands and haven't had a problem since 1♠ is forcing (by an unpassed hand).

Thus using 2♠ as forcing one round isn't a problem either....while using a jump to 3♠ as the only gf spade holding is a horrific waste of space, not to mention making it extraordinarily difficult to distinguish spade length.

I use the jump to 3♠ as showing a very good 6+ suit, gf and usually some slam thoughts in mind

[junyi_zhu]

mikeh, on Sep 22 2010, 10:19 PM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Sep 22 2010, 04:29 PM, said:

bucky, on Sep 22 2010, 09:00 PM, said:

junyi_zhu, on Sep 22 2010, 03:55 PM, said:

If 2S is gf, you can bid 3C to show doubt in 3NT. It doesn't make a lot of sense to play 3C as natural here. Then it would be rather straightforward:
....
3C 3D
3S 4S

But most don't play 2♠ as gf.

Then they should have a gf bid to show spades. It's not easy to handle both gf and nongf hands with the same bid.

it isn't??????

I respond 1♠ to 1♦ with all ranges of hands and haven't had a problem since 1♠ is forcing (by an unpassed hand).

Thus using 2♠ as forcing one round isn't a problem either....while using a jump to 3♠ as the only gf spade holding is a horrific waste of space, not to mention making it extraordinarily difficult to distinguish spade length.

I use the jump to 3♠ as showing a very good 6+ suit, gf and usually some slam thoughts in mind

Well, 1S is low. The major reason for 2/1 gf is that two level is rather high, so it makes a lot of sense to make 2/1 gf. If 2/1 is high, a reverse is often higher. In that sense, a
two way bid (either gf or nongf) is really not easy after a reverse.

Another way is to consider the rounds of bidding. A simple 2/1 is only in the first round of bid, and it forces to game. A reverse is in the second round, and 2S after the reverse is also in the second round, which means that after two rounds of bids, when you used the whole 1 level and almost the whole 2 level, you still can't show clearly whether you want to force to game or not. This is certainly not an effective design of bidding.