[hanp]

I don't agree with the reasoning. First, south doesn't need an opening hand with a strong club suit and a shapely hand. Second, when the opponents make a penalty double of 3H and partner pulls back to his suit, he'd better know what he is doing.

Also, the fact that opener's partner is doubling us suggests that partner does not have a lot of HCP and therefore should have strong clubs.

[nige1]

jahol, on Sep 21 2010, 01:09 PM, said:

IMPs, teams, nonvulnerable against vulnerable...
North: ..... KJ-----QJ96542----743----------3
South: .... 753----void---------652----KQJ10962
West-------North-------East-------South
1NT(1)-----pass-------2H(2)-------3C
pass--------3H----------X(3)-------4C
X(4)--------4H----------X(4)-------pass
(1) - weak NT, 12-14
(2) - transfer to spades, unlimited
(3) - for take out
(4) - for penalty.
5 down, -1100, -450(4 spades with overtrick) at the other table, -12 IMPs.
Who should be blamed? N-S use "usual" defence against weak NT - double 14+, 2C = Landy, rest - "natural".

IMO: 50-50 but mainly bad luck. If conventional wisdom is that South's 3♣ should be sound at favourable vulnerability opposite a passing partner, then conventional wisdom is wrong. If you pass then the contract may be 3N or 4♠ when the bidding gets back to you. 3♣ seems to have a more useful role in indicating a lead and suggesting a sacrifice. North should have bid 3♥ directly over 1N. In view of the apparent misfit: South should probably pass the takeout-double of 3♥ and North should pass 4♣ doubled.

[jdonn]

Good grief, if south has a doubleton heart he is not going to rebid anything less than a stellar club suit!

[quiddity]

hanp, on Sep 22 2010, 12:09 PM, said:

I don't agree with the reasoning. First, south doesn't need an opening hand with a strong club suit and a shapely hand. Second, when the opponents make a penalty double of 3H and partner pulls back to his suit, he'd better know what he is doing.

Also, the fact that opener's partner is doubling us suggests that partner does not have a lot of HCP and therefore should have strong clubs.

1. How weak can South be for this overcall? Isn't north expected to bid 3NT somewhat aggressively over it?

2. The opponents didn't make a penalty double of 3H.

3. Agree that the opp's bidding suggests someone doesn't have his bid and given the vul partner is probably the joker. On the other hand they have penalized 4C and they haven't yet shown they can penalize 4H and we have not shown our length.. it doesn't seem completely wrong to try running to hearts.

[jahol]

In my opinion, I (North) can not even think about passing 3C. There are many South's hands with a pretty reasonable chance to made 4H.

The truth is that there are more reasons for passing 4C. Still, the game can be made, partner will not support my H even with H dubletton.

And I am not sure whether the (immediate) 2H overcall is appropriate. It seems to me that it can lead to the same problems as 3C bid of my partner, because I may show stronger hand than I have actually. Last but not least, 2H bid may cost a trick after partner's first (heart) lead and I may not have entry to cash my H suit in NT contract played by the opponents.

[ggwhiz]

I don't like sooo many of the bids but Number One is 3♣.

As stated by many, this bid shows a good hand.

You need to pass and have it go 2♠ passed back to you before bidding with a 6 count. Not stopping in 4♣ is another issue but this started the rot.

[655321]

(1) I would have overcalled 3♥ originally, I don't really like pass.
(2) I would have overcalled 4♣, much prefer it to 3♣.
(3) 3♥, good bid!
(4) 4♣, good bid!
(5) 4♥, unbelievably bad bid, partner has bid 3♣ at favorable then 4♣, opponents haven't stopped doubling, what do you think is going on?
(6) Pass, good bid, South knew he didn't want to play in 5♥X, so 4♥X was his best result possible.

[cherdanno]

jahol, on Sep 22 2010, 04:36 PM, said:

The truth is that there are more reasons for passing 4C. Still, the game can be made, partner will not support my H even with H dubletton.

But partner can pass 3HX with a doubleton! Your partner pulled a penalty double to a contract one level higher, in a suit he had already bid.

[the hog]

Fluffy, on Sep 22 2010, 08:08 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Sep 22 2010, 08:45 AM, said:

North's first pass rather than 2H is odd.
South's 3C bid is poor and Nth could certainly expect more values.

if my english is correct you state that north passing is not the normal bid, yet you say 3♣ is not correct either, this is very contradictional to me.


North 90% blame

Absolutely Fluffy. Firstly you are one level lower. Secondly you are overcalling in a Major, where the possibility of game is better if partner has a fit, a shortage and a smattering of high cards.
I am always amused by bids like 3C. What does it stand to gain? Some players like to bid on hands like this simply for the sake of making a noise. The end result is similar to if they had simply broken wind.

[hanp]

Yes how could bidding on xxx - xxx KQJ10xxx, white against red, ever gain?? Impossible!

[Flameous]

I dislike pass over 1NT, it's really bid now or shut it type of hand.
I sort of like twisting typical meanings of bids in transfer sequences, i.e. 3♣ here actually shows pre-emptive pre-balance. Bidding later shows the values. It costs when they pre-empt you with superfit but I think it stands to gain in other scenarios.
However without that kind of agreement, 3♣ would be ok after strong NT but is quite awful after weak one.
I'm not really sure about this 3♥ call but I guess it's sort of must make, you could even be missing game, but I'm not happy about it. Wanted to get the hand off my chest round earlier.
4♣ is bid for the rescue, but I prefer to let opps in the hard spot of actually converting to penalty. I find it often the hardest place to sit in auction like this, better put the pressure on opps. Sometimes partner can still move to 4♣.
4♥ is the real disaster bid which should never happen.

I put it 50/50, both made one really bad bid and some minor flaws.

[gwnn]

it's nice to have two ways of bidding 2M here;

2D=weak two in a major
2M=opening hand in a major
(and a third: double then 2M is good good opening hand in a major)

[vuroth]

cherdanno, on Sep 22 2010, 07:03 PM, said:

jahol, on Sep 22 2010, 04:36 PM, said:

The truth is that there are more reasons for passing 4C. Still, the game can be made, partner will not support my H even with H dubletton.

But partner can pass 3HX with a doubleton! Your partner pulled a penalty double to a contract one level higher, in a suit he had already bid.

It's been pointed out before, but he double of 3♥ was described as "takeout", not "penalty".

It seem a bit of a strange meaning to me, but so be it.

Still, though, I wonder how many HCP north thought were in the deck. East can answer a weak NT and bid again over 3C. North has a weak NT opener but can double at the 4 level for penalty. If partner is as loaded as north things she is, we're probably pulling 50HCP in the deck.

At some point in the bidding, imho, north has to start to rethink what south might have, whatever he hoped the first bid might mean.

[the hog]

vuroth, on Sep 23 2010, 08:27 PM, said:

cherdanno, on Sep 22 2010, 07:03 PM, said:

jahol, on Sep 22 2010, 04:36 PM, said:

The truth is that there are more reasons for passing 4C. Still, the game can be made, partner will not support my H even with H dubletton.

But partner can pass 3HX with a doubleton! Your partner pulled a penalty double to a contract one level higher, in a suit he had already bid.

It's been pointed out before, but he double of 3♥ was described as "takeout", not "penalty".

It seem a bit of a strange meaning to me, but so be it.

Still, though, I wonder how many HCP north thought were in the deck. East can answer a weak NT and bid again over 3C. North has a weak NT opener but can double at the 4 level for penalty. If partner is as loaded as north things she is, we're probably pulling 50HCP in the deck.

At some point in the bidding, imho, north has to start to rethink what south might have, whatever he hoped the first bid might mean.

Maybe North trusted his partner rather than the opponents, Vuroth.