[olien]

I'm trying to figure out the best structure possible to show balanced hands after a strong 1C opening. Our balanced hands include: 5♠(332), 5m(332), any 4333, and any 4432. We want to have our strength divided into 3 ranges in as many situations as possible, but having only 2 ranges, when necessary, is OK.

Our balanced hands effectively go through 1C-2C and 1C-2D (with some bids in-between in the latter auction which are not relevant). We are also trying to make the structure as symmetric as possible.

The structure we have now is:
1C-2C shows balanced 8-11 (but could be more with 33(43) or 4S-4D).
After the 2D relay, 2H=33(43) or 4S-4D any strength, and 2S+ are like 1C-2D// 2H. That structure is:
2S 5m(332) or 4-4 minors (now 3C=5C, 3D=4/4 minors, 3H+=5D zoom->doubleton)
2N 5S(332) or 4-4 majors (now 3D=4/4 majors, 3H+=5S zoom->doubleton)
3C 4H-4C or 3433 (now 3H=2434, 3S=3424, 3N=3433)
3D 4H-4D
3H 4234
3S 4324
3N 4333

Right now, we have 2 ranges: 8-11 and 12+, but are trying to devise a more efficient structure where we can have narrower ranges (maybe 8-10, 11-13, 14+ or similar). Or where we can keep the same two ranges, but maybe have like a 3S size ask bid available at the close of more auctions. All suggestions would be welcome. Thank You

[hrothgar]

For what its worth, I think that resolving the range of various GF hands before you show shape makes life WAY too complicated.

Here's the relay structure that I typically use to show balanced hands

In theory, you could use a 1N response to show 1 range and bids from 2♦+ to show the other.

3♠ = 2-3-3-5 shape
3♥ = 3-2-3-5 shape
3♦ 3-3-2-5 shape
3♣ = 2-3-4-4 or 3-2-4-4 shape
2N = 5332 with primary clubs
2♠ = any 4333 shape
2♥ = 4+ Spades, 2-3 Hearts, denies 4-3-3-3 shape
2♦ = 4+ Hearts, denies 3-4-3-3 shape

After

2♥, 2♠ = relay and then

2N = 5332
3♣ = 4 Hearts and 4 Clubs
3♦ = 2-4-4-3 shape
3♥ = 3-4-4-2 shape

After 2♦, 2♥ = relay and then

2♠ = 4 Spades and 4 Hearts
2N = 5332
3♣ = 4 Spades and 4 Diamonds
3♦ = 4-2-4-3 shape
3♥ = 4-3-4-2 shape

[olien]

Hrothgar, our response structure doesn't allow for this. Our response structure is:

1D=negative
1H=4+S or 12+ balanced (if only 4S, then 3-suited or longer minor)
1S=5+H
1N=5+C (could be 5-5 minors)
2C=8-11 balanced (or 8+ if 33(43) or 4S-4D)
2D=6+D
2H=4+H 5+D
2S=1444, 04(54), 44(50)
2N+=5+D 4C

[hrothgar]

olien, on Sep 19 2010, 11:57 PM, said:

Hrothgar, our response structure doesn't allow for this. Our response structure is:

1D=negative
1H=4+S or 12+ balanced (if only 4S, then 3-suited or longer minor)
1S=5+H
1N=5+C (could be 5-5 minors)
2C=8-11 balanced (or 8+ if 33(43) or 4S-4D)
2D=6+D
2H=4+H 5+D
2S=1444, 04(54), 44(50)
2N+=5+D 4C

If you're resolving balanced hands with 1NT, simply shift things up by a step.

You'll probably want to adjust the transfer response scheme, however, the basic system will still work and you won't bypass 3NT with any hand type

[olien]

After 1C-1H// 1S (relay):
1NT=4S unbalanced or 12+ balanced
2C+=5+S, resolving shape

After the 1NT bid, 2C relays and then:
2D=12+ balanced
2H=4S 5+C
2S=4(441) or 40(54)
2N+=4S 5+D

Now you don't have room to resolve everything as you suggested. We need to cover 25 hands types (9 5332s, 12 4432s, and 4 4333s), and there is only room for 21 hand types after the 2D bid showing 12+ balanced.

[hrothgar]

olien, on Sep 20 2010, 12:38 AM, said:

After 1C-1H// 1S (relay):
1NT=4S unbalanced or 12+ balanced
2C+=5+S, resolving shape

After the 1NT bid, 2C relays and then:
2D=12+ balanced
2H=4S 5+C
2S=4(441) or 40(54)
2N+=4S 5+D

Now you don't have room to resolve everything as you suggested. We need to cover 25 hands types (9 5332s, 12 4432s, and 4 4333s), and there is only room for 21 hand types after the 2D bid showing 12+ balanced.

I'm pretty fond of the relay scheme that I listed...
Its very symmetric and very easy to remember.

Potentially, you might want to consider giving up on the split range with the balanced hand types. This should save you quite a lot of space.

In my experience, its far from essentially and eliminating this will really simplify your life. (The relay scheme that I use is based on a 1♦ response showing (almost) any GF hand.

We use a RR by the 1♣ opener to limit strength.

[olien]

We could re-arrange our responses to use your suggested structure:

1H=5+S or any balanced hand
2C=4S unbalanced
rest=same


after 1C-1H// 1S-1N=balanced, and 2C relays and puts us on track with the suggested structure. Have you had problems with wrong-siding contracts with responder "stealing" the NT contract, and declaring more hands with known distribution?

As an aside, the 1D response as almost any GF, does this work well for you? Do the opponents not interfere in a way that's bad for you? How does this initial response structure look when typed up?

Thanks

[olien]

As a note, in ACBLand, any non-1D response to 1C which is artificial MUST be game-forcing. So, I guess whatever you have just wouldn't be allowed But, I would still like to know your experiences with siding issues with the balanced responding hand bidding 1NT. Thanks

[hrothgar]

olien, on Sep 20 2010, 01:03 AM, said:

As an aside, the 1D response as almost any GF, does this work well for you?  Do the opponents not interfere in a way that's bad for you?  How does this initial response structure look when typed up?

I like 1♣ - 1♦ = most any GF

1. We're able to immediately show shape with semi positive hands which forestalls many competitive auctions.

2. If the opponents do intervene after 1♣ - (P) - (1♦) we have an unambiguous forcing pass established which makes life a LOT easier.

3. The strong club opener can immediately reverse the relay and limit strength

4. In many cases, we're able to reverse the relay after a balanced hand bids 1NT

After a strong club opening

3N - 5=4=4=0 shape
3♠ - 4=5=4=0 shape
3♥ - 4=4=5=0 shape
3♦ - 5440 with a Diamond void
3♣ - AKQxxxx in any suit
2N - 5440 with a major suit void
2♠ - Single suited with Spades
2♥ - Single suited with Hearts
2♦ - 5+ Spades and 4+ Diamonds
2♣ - 5+ Spades and (4+ Hearts or 4+ Clubs)
1N - Unbalanced with 5+ Hearts
1♠ - Double negative
1♥ - Balanced or unbalanced with no 5 card major
1♦ - GF (denies 5440 or solid 7+ card suit)

After 1♣ - 1♦
(Or 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥)

3N - 3=0=6=4 shape
3♠ - 2=1=6=4 shape
3♥ - 3=1=5=4 shape
3♦ - 3=2=5=2 shape
3♣ - 5+ Diamonds and 4 Clubs, High shortage
2N - 5+ Diamonds and 5+ Clubs
2♠ - 4 Diamonds and 5+ Clubs
2♥ - Single suited with Spades
2♦ - Two suited with Spades and Diamonds
2♣ - Single suited with Clubs or 2 suited with Spades and Clubs
1N - Balanced or 4441
1♠ - Two suited with Hearts or Single suited Hearts or Single Suited Diamonds
1♥ - Relay

[glen]

olien, on Sep 19 2010, 06:22 PM, said:

As a note, in ACBLand, any non-1D response to 1C which is artificial MUST be game-forcing.  ...

This is incorrect for 1♣ 15+ (or if you defined your opening as forcing). Please see:

http://www.acbl.org/assets/documents/play/...ntion-Chart.pdf

GCC Rules said:

7. ARTIFICIAL AND CONVENTIONAL CALLS after strong (15+ HCP), forcing opening bids and after opening bids of two clubs or higher.

[olien]

Weird, I e-mailed the ACBL just last week about system legality type stuff, and I will quote a portion of the e-mail:

"Conventional responses to your 1C must be game forcing"

I will check up on it, thanks for the heads up Glen.

[zenko]

If completely artificial responses are not an issue, the optimal space-conserving structure is one based on Fibonacci numbers tree, since it is mathematically the most efficient one. Curiously enough it is also the easiest one to remember IMO, once you grasp the basic principle its a breeze.

http://en.wikipedia....ibonacci_number

[rbforster]

olien, on Sep 19 2010, 07:42 PM, said:

Weird, I e-mailed the ACBL just last week about system legality type stuff, and I will quote a portion of the e-mail:

"Conventional responses to your 1C must be game forcing"

Well, asking the ACBL is just an invitation to get random answers. Glen is correct that all artificial responses are allowed after a strong opening. How do you think the standard players get away with 2♣-2♦ waiting, 2♥ negative, etc? Same rule.

[rbforster]

olien, on Sep 19 2010, 03:57 PM, said:

Hrothgar, our response structure doesn't allow for this.  Our response structure is:

1D=negative
1H=4+S or 12+ balanced (if only 4S, then 3-suited or longer minor)
1S=5+H
1N=5+C (could be 5-5 minors)
2C=8-11 balanced (or 8+ if 33(43) or 4S-4D)
2D=6+D
2H=4+H 5+D
2S=1444, 04(54), 44(50)
2N+=5+D 4C

IMO, going with the split range for balanced hands isn't a good plan and I'm not sure when people do this playing relays. I guess it helps if you only think as far as the first response to a strong club and then "bid naturally" and need a way to show extras or not.

I think there are two more big choices here:

1) Do you want to include 5332 hands as balanced?
2) Do you want to right-side NT?

I certainly prefer #2, and would ideally like to include 5m332 as balanced as well. 5M332 I think would be best showing the major, but if you play symmetric relay that'll screw up your major-minor single suited responses.

In my strong club, I compromised and used the following:

1C-1S balanced (4432/4333 only) or 1-suited clubs
1N-2C just clubs (which includes 5332)
......2D+ balanced hands (use TOSR if you want, but I've got better relays if you ask )

Shape resolves at 3D/3H typically, so you can get a cheap range-ask in at that point and only go past 3N when responder shows the 3rd step in values (so it's probably ok).

In an older version of a strong club I was taught, we used 1S for all balanced hands including all 5332s. There were some nice relays after this that resolved at 3C/3D/3H(zoom), so lots of space for showing strength later. I eventually decided on the above version instead since I thought I wanted to allocate more bidding space to the unbalanced hands for slam investigation.

[straube]

I agree with RobF about not dividing your balanced hands into two or more ranges. Find your strain before you look for extras. Also, if you have multiple bids for strengths they'll go unused when you're relaying out your passed hands.

[straube]

How about...

1D-0-7
1H-4S
.....1N-4H
..........2D-3-suited w Ms
.....2C-4D
.....2D-6S
.....2H-5C, reverser
1S-C, D, or C/D
.....2C-C/D
.....2D-6C
.....2H-3-suited w ms
.....2S-6D bal
1N-4H
.....2D-6H
.....2H-5C, reverser
2C-H/D
2D-4H, bal
.....2S-4C
.....2N-5H
.....3C-4423
.....3D-4432
.....3H-2443
.....3S-3442
2H-4S, bal
.....2N-5S
.....3C-4234
.....3D-4324
.....3H-4243
.....3S-4342
2S-(4333)
2N-5C
3C-4m4m
3D-2353
3H-3253
3S-3352

[rbforster]

I am a fan of shape before strength. That said, strength is important and needs to be sorted out below 3N, which is the tightest constraint of all game hands. I would want to make sure I left enough space to resolve full shape with a top bid of 3H ideally. This means that the top shape shows 3 strength ranges without passing 3N (3H/3S/3N zooming), and the second top shape still shows 2 range (3D shape - 3H® - 3S/3N/4C zooming). All lower shapes get 3+ ranges.

If you don't have space for this in your system, I would consider reworking your system. Balanced hands are VERY common, so you should handle them well. If this means you have to screw up your shape relays on some 7330 shapes, well, those are very rare and much more likely to be contested auctions too.

[Free]

For balanced hands you can also use 2♦ as a relay (2♥ is too high though). Therefor 2♣ can be used to show a balanced hand, and you can use several ways to get there (1♣-2♣ or 1♣-1♥-1♠-2♣ for example) to show various ranges. I agree with Richard that it makes things more complicated to show various ranges immediately.

After 2♦ relay:
2♥ = 4-5♥
...2NT = 5♥332
...3♣ = 4♥-4♣
......3♥/♠ = 2-3/3-2
...3♦ = 4♥-4♦
......3♠/NT = 2-3/3-2
...3♥ = 4=4=2=3
...3♠ = 4=4=3=2
...3NT = 3=4=3=3
2♠ = 4-5♠
...3♣ = 5♠332
...3♦ = 4♠-4♦
...3♥ = 4=2=3=4
...3♠ = 4=3=2=4
...3NT = 4=3=3=3
2NT = 5♣332/3=3=3=4
...3♦/M = 5332
...3NT = 3=3=3=4
3♣ = 4♦-4♣
...3♥/♠ = 2-3/3-2
3♦/M = 5♦332
3NT = 3=3=4=3

This is pretty symmetrical. If you want to rightside the contract more often, I suggest to reverse the meanings of 2M. Since opener has bid both minors (1♣ opening an 2♦ relay) there's no need to reverse these as well. You could however bid the suits up the line if you prefer that.

If you want 3 ranges, it may be useful to combine the weakest and the strongest in 1 call. That way, responder can zoom if he holds the strongest possible holding. Suppose you want 8-11, 12-15 and 16+. Combine 8-11 with 16+ in 1 response. Then, if opener relays and responder would bid 3NT, he can bid 4♣ to show the 4333 with 16+HCP. Also if opener wants to signoff, responder can still bid something else.

[hrothgar]

olien, on Sep 20 2010, 03:42 AM, said:

Weird, I e-mailed the ACBL just last week about system legality type stuff, and I will quote a portion of the e-mail:

"Conventional responses to your 1C must be game forcing"

I will check up on it, thanks for the heads up Glen.

I'd LOVE to see the entire email... These things are always good for a laugh.

I often wonder whether the continuous stream of nonsensical and contradictory interpretations is deliberate or symptomatic.

[Free]

Noooooo don't email the ACBL and quote their responses for Richard to read!!!