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paying attention

#1 User is online   kgr 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 08:32

Scoring: IMP

West Open 2♠ Muiderberg. Weak with 5c♠ and 4c minor.
(2♠)-Pass-(Pass)-DBL
(Pass)-3♣-(Pass)-3NT
AP
 
LHO leads a small ♦. How do you play?
(I misplayed this because I was not paying enough attention)
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#2 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 09:05

Spoiler
:)
ARCH
EDIT: initially didn't realize I was responding in B/I
"Tell me of your home world, Usul"
the Freman, Chani from the move "Dune"

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

George Bernard Shaw
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#3 User is online   kgr 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 09:22

pooltuna, on Sep 19 2010, 05:05 PM, said:

Spoiler
:)

That is what I did when I didn't pay attention
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#4 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 09:59

kgr, on Sep 19 2010, 10:22 AM, said:

pooltuna, on Sep 19 2010, 05:05 PM, said:

  I make my contract of course 2♦] + 4♣+ 2♥ + 1♠   :)

That is what I did when I didn't pay attention

can't be much of a misplay at IMPS
"Tell me of your home world, Usul"
the Freman, Chani from the move "Dune"

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

George Bernard Shaw
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#5 User is offline   vuroth 

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Posted 2010-September-19, 12:24

kgr, on Sep 19 2010, 09:32 AM, said:

How do you play?

I play
Spoiler

Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.

"gwnn" said:

rule number 1 in efficient forum reading:
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
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#6 User is online   kgr 

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Posted 2010-September-20, 00:31

pooltuna, on Sep 19 2010, 05:59 PM, said:

kgr, on Sep 19 2010, 10:22 AM, said:

pooltuna, on Sep 19 2010, 05:05 PM, said:

<!-- HIDDEN begin --><span class='hiddenpost'>  I make my contract of course 2♦] + 4♣+ 2♥ + 1♠ </span><!-- HIDDEN end -->  :unsure:

That is what I did when I didn't pay attention

can't be much of a misplay at IMPS

Not much :o but at the end every IMP can be important.
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#7 User is online   kgr 

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Posted 2010-September-20, 00:34

vuroth, on Sep 19 2010, 08:24 PM, said:

kgr, on Sep 19 2010, 09:32 AM, said:

How do you play?

I play
Spoiler

I took the first trick with ♦A and continued with ♣A.
What should you play next?
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#8 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-September-20, 01:13

AK of hearts.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#9 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2010-September-20, 02:25

Hidden

Spoiler

"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#10 User is online   kgr 

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Posted 2010-September-20, 02:52

My thought was to cash the ♥A. In the actual case LHO was 5=0=5=3.
But if LHO follows to ♥A;
- is it best to cash ♥K as well and play LHO for ♥Qx
- or then play ♣ and if LHO follows to 3♣'s play him for 5=1=4=3 and finesse ♥'s (...or would you never risk that at IMP's in case he opened Muiderbarg with 5=2=3=3?)
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#11 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-September-20, 04:01

lol @ Muiderberg with 5=2=3=3. That's a clear example of an adjusted score to +3 imps if they do it (these days TD even announces this, you should know this). :(

Just play ♥AK, you know many open 2M on crappy 5422 hands.
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#12 User is online   kgr 

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Posted 2010-September-20, 04:11

Free, on Sep 20 2010, 12:01 PM, said:

lol @ Muiderberg with 5=2=3=3. That's a clear example of an adjusted score to +3 imps if they do it (these days TD even announces this, you should know this). :(

Just play ♥AK, you know many open 2M on crappy 5422 hands.

But if Muiderberg with 5233 is not allowed; what is most likely?:
- 5242 with ♥Qx
- 5143
I would think the second one and it is better to only cash ♥A and finesse ♥ if LHO appears to have 3c♣?
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#13 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-September-20, 05:35

kgr, on Sep 20 2010, 11:11 AM, said:

Free, on Sep 20 2010, 12:01 PM, said:

lol @ Muiderberg with 5=2=3=3.  That's a clear example of an adjusted score to +3 imps if they do it (these days TD even announces this, you should know this).  :(

Just play ♥AK, you know many open 2M on crappy 5422 hands.

But if Muiderberg with 5233 is not allowed; what is most likely?:
- 5242 with ♥Qx
- 5143
I would think the second one and it is better to only cash ♥A and finesse ♥ if LHO appears to have 3c♣?

Since when is it impossible for LHO to have 4 ♣s?

This is the moment where we need to make a decision, and there's no way back. Playing ♥AK is perfectly safe, and gives you a chance for 2 overtricks. Playing only ♥A and finessing later not 100% safe (even if the condition is met), and can only generate 1 overtrick "if if if". So it seems pretty clear to just play the safe line with possible +2 and without all the "if"s.
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#14 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2010-September-20, 07:29

Would be more interesting as a matchpoint problem ..
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
-gwnn
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#15 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2010-September-20, 11:47

Quote

This is the moment where we need to make a decision, and there's no way back. Playing ♥AK is perfectly safe, and gives you a chance for 2 overtricks. Playing only ♥A and finessing later not 100% safe (even if the condition is met), and can only generate 1 overtrick "if if if". So it seems pretty clear to just play the safe line with possible +2 and without all the "if"s


Uh, explain to me how finessing later isn't safe if LHO follows to 2+ clubs, unless LHO is reasonably likely to psyche Muiderberg on 4-bagger spades? (or 3 bagger spade if followed to 3+ clubs)

It seems to me if you rate the possibility of an outright psyche neglible, that the finesse is going to be +EV compared to cashing ♥AK.
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#16 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-September-21, 03:07

Stephen Tu, on Sep 20 2010, 06:47 PM, said:

Quote

This is the moment where we need to make a decision, and there's no way back. Playing ♥AK is perfectly safe, and gives you a chance for 2 overtricks. Playing only ♥A and finessing later not 100% safe (even if the condition is met), and can only generate 1 overtrick "if if if". So it seems pretty clear to just play the safe line with possible +2 and without all the "if"s


Uh, explain to me how finessing later isn't safe if LHO follows to 2+ clubs, unless LHO is reasonably likely to psyche Muiderberg on 4-bagger spades? (or 3 bagger spade if followed to 3+ clubs)

It seems to me if you rate the possibility of an outright psyche neglible, that the finesse is going to be +EV compared to cashing ♥AK.

- What will you do if LHO appears to have 4♣?
- If LHO shows 3♣ exactly you can still go down if he psyched the 5233 hand (but these days this is penalized by the TD in our region) or if he put a ♣ between his ♠s and has a 4243.
- If he shows 2♣ LHO can still have 5242 and finessing may give the contract away.
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#17 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2010-September-21, 11:41

Quote

- What will you do if LHO appears to have 4♣?

Finesse? If it loses, LHO was 5224, he has no diamond to return to east, you still get 9 tricks. Aren't you OK unless LHO psyched 2s on 2-2-5-4?

Quote

- If LHO shows 3♣ exactly you can still go down if he psyched the 5233 hand (but these days this is penalized by the TD in our region) or if he put a ♣ between his ♠s and has a 4243.

If he has 5-2-3-3, then East started with 4 diamonds, no? They get CK, HQ, 2 diamonds if I take a losing hook, I still have 9 tricks no?

Same idea if 4243.

Only in trouble if 3253. I think I am willing to risk that.


Quote

- If he shows 2♣ LHO can still have 5242 and finessing may give the contract away.


??? Same 2d + 1C + 1h lost if no psyche? Admittedly greater risk of 4252 and "club in with the spades".
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#18 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2010-September-21, 17:23

You'll go down finessing if LHO opened on 5251 or 5350, though the latter is unlikely. It's imps, i wouldn't stress too much about the overtrick, just whack down AK.
Wayne Somerville
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#19 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2010-September-21, 18:56

Well of course we were planning on cashing out if LHO started with stiff/void club. The question is what to do when LHO turns up with 2 or more clubs. I think hooking is way better, Free claimed it was "unsafe", but I fail to see why.

If LHO 5251, not whacking down AK loses 1 imp when he holds Qx.
If LHO 5242, hook gains 1 imp vs. xx, loses 2 imps vs. Qx, should roughly break even?
If LHO 5143, you gain an imp by hooking. This is more common than case 1, no?
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