[inquiry]

Scoring: imps

---

RHO You LHO Prd
2♥  Ps  3♥  3♠
4♣  ?

2♥ showed 5♥'s and and 4+ in a minor and less than an opening hand.

You may not have passed over 2♥, but this is the auction. 3♥ was "preemptive" so bear in mind that your partner, who is clearly short in hearts (void?) can be direct seat balancing, bidding some of you your hcp. What do you call over 4♣?

[the hog]

X and X again over the expected 4H.

[han]

Dbl. Barring a very lucky club fit, I expect them to go down at least 3.

Though it seems to have worked out very well, I don't understand our initial pass. What do we need for 2NT?

Also, imo, preemptive here just means that they don't have game. Partner should have a real hand, not the stuff you would bid on over 1H-2H.

[Free]

Clear Double imo

[whereagles]

Hannie: Better to pass this hand than to bid 2NT. There is no urge to bid because pard, who rates to be short in hearts, will double 2H on 9-10 points and you can pass that. If pard isn't strong enough to balance, there's no game for your side and they'll go down peacefully in 2H. To bid 2NT may work out ok, but... it can also lead to big trouble if pard is bust. Fortunately, this time you can pass 2H.

[the hog]

Whereagles you have doe it again. When rho bids 2H you don't know whether pd is short in H or not. FAR better is to express the value of the hand. 2NT is a much better bid than the problematic pass.

[whereagles]

To pass or bid 2NT is a matter of judgement. For the reasons I presented, which I am willing to defend, I believe I can afford a pass here.

[inquiry]

I think I agree with pass here with this hand, and I know Misho did, because he held that hand and passed over 2♥. But he trust me to reopen when short in ♥, and if I am not short in ♥, they are likely to bail out to a minor.

Ben

[paulhar]

whereagles, on Aug 9 2004, 05:24 AM, said:

Better to pass this hand than to bid 2NT. There is no urge to bid because pard, who rates to be short in hearts, will double 2H on 9-10 points and you can pass that.

The opponent only showed five hearts so there's no guarantee that your partner is going to be short. Also, partner is only going to double with 9-10 points if his distribution is perfect. With something like 4-2-2-5, no double is forthcoming because partner can't handle the likely 3D bid.

With your heart cards so well placed, you should be able to make 3NT across from most 8 or 9-counts so 2NT seems right to me.

Quote

To bid 2NT may work out ok, but... it can also lead to big trouble if pard is bust.

BIG trouble? If partner hasn't got any useful cards, I could go down 4, but that's unlikely. A lot of times that partner is broke, he'll have a long suit to make trump and we'll scramble home for 7 or 8 tricks. And some of the time, partner won't be broke when they double the runout and we'll make it.

[Trpltrbl]

X. Possibly 6♠ has a play, but I start with X and try to find out more.


Mike

[the hog]

"I think I agree with pass here with this hand, and I know Misho did, because he held that hand and passed over 2♥. But he trust me to reopen when short in ♥, and if I am not short in ♥, they are likely to bail out to a minor."

Problem is this Ben,
If you are playing against a strong pair, the partner of one of these funny opener's may well pass with a weak hand depending on vul of course, even if in an inferior contract, to put pressure on the opps, rather than bid and give opps 2 biites at the cherry. This is why I think an immediate 2N is far superior.

This is one example I saw over the weekend - nv v vul
2D Multi - options, weak 2 in a Major only
Pd passed holding Qxx xx Kxxx QJxx

I think you will find this becomes increasingly common.

[whereagles]

Paulhar:
>The opponent only showed five hearts so there's no guarantee that your partner
>is going to be short.

Not a guarantee, but a strong likelyhood. That may not be good enough for you, but is good enough for me. You can miss 3NT by passing, of course, but I'm convinced pard will balance in most of the cases where 3NT makes.


Hog:
>If you are playing against a strong pair, the partner of one of these funny
>opener's may well pass with a weak hand depending on vul of course, even if in
>an inferior contract, to put pressure on the opps, rather than bid and give opps 2
>biites at the cherry

I know what you mean. I've tried those tactics when I used to play that type of 2-level openings. From experience, the results are usually a bit of a top-or-zero. While this is the sort of gamble I can imagine Zia or Chagas would be glad to do, I doubt sound experts would do it on a regular basis.

[mishovnbg]

2NT is bad bid. You have no fillers or long suit, you have too much hcp in ♥, so you can make 3NT only by power. If your p have 10+hcp and his name is Ben, he will balance for sure... If he don't have hcp/distribution with 5 def tricks and 4 trumps is much better to defend.
Misho

[paulhar]

mishovnbg, on Aug 22 2004, 12:34 PM, said:

If your p have 10+hcp and his name is Ben, he will balance for sure

For sure? From the posts I've seen, Ben, albeit his reputation for bidding a lot, is a competent bridge player. Show me the competent bridge player that will bid over 2H-P-P with:

A5
J63
K542
Q763

[luke warm]

paulhar, on Aug 22 2004, 08:41 PM, said:

mishovnbg, on Aug 22 2004, 12:34 PM, said:

If your p have 10+hcp and his name is Ben, he will balance for sure

For sure? From the posts I've seen, Ben, albeit his reputation for bidding a lot, is a competent bridge player. Show me the competent bridge player that will bid over 2H-P-P with:

A5
J63
K542
Q763

sorry paul, this confuses me some... i've played with ben some, and i'm not saying he'd bid with that hand 100% of the time (but he might), however i wouldn't call one incompetent for bidding or doubling here

[paulhar]

luke warm, on Aug 22 2004, 04:24 PM, said:

paulhar, on Aug 22 2004, 08:41 PM, said:

2H-P-P:

A5
J63
K542
Q763  

sorry paul, this confuses me some... i've played with ben some, and i'm not saying he'd bid with that hand 100% of the time (but he might), however i wouldn't call one incompetent for bidding or doubling here

Now I'm confused. Bid? What, 2NT? Oddly enough, I remember a thread about a month ago that discussed this very sequence (maybe the 2H didn't show 5) but most thought it showed a real strong notrump although some went down to 14.

The thread:
http://bridgebase.lunarpages.com/~bridge2/...?showtopic=3726

If you double, what do you do over partner's 2S bid? Or over partner's 3S bid?

If RHO is sitting there with a good hand with short hearts, he's going to love doubling you in your 5-2 (or 4-2!) fit. Want to redouble for rescue? 2S might be your best (least bad) spot so let the fun begin!

This is IMPs too, so it's not just one bottom if you're wrong, it could be the match.

[luke warm]

ok fine, but incompetent?

[mishovnbg]

paulhar, on Aug 22 2004, 08:41 PM, said:

mishovnbg, on Aug 22 2004, 12:34 PM, said:

If your p have 10+hcp and his name is Ben, he will balance for sure

For sure? From the posts I've seen, Ben, albeit his reputation for bidding a lot, is a competent bridge player. Show me the competent bridge player that will bid over 2H-P-P with:

A5
J63
K542
Q763

With hand in example he will balance with 2NT. In vul it will take some time .
Our own limited competence is sometimes obstacle to realize higher competence of others. I had similar problem with Henri's(ritong) balancing and I hate to remember about it...
Misho

[mishovnbg]

paulhar: "Now I'm confused. Bid? What, 2NT? Oddly enough, I remember a thread about a month ago that discussed this very sequence (maybe the 2H didn't show 5) but most thought it showed a real strong notrump although some went down to 14."

Sorry if I repeat myself, but this question is probably for beginner/intermediate section again. Exuse me for boring explanations again experts...

We use with Ben simple convention - scrambing rebid of take out dbl in cheapest suit. It already happen at table several times with success (least lose). With (14)15-17(18)hcp and same distribution Ben will dbl and on 2♠ response will bid 3♣ scramble and NF. With (9)10-13(14)hcp he will bid 2NT directly from reopen position.
Misho

[paulhar]

mishovnbg, on Aug 23 2004, 10:19 AM, said:

Sorry if I repeat myself, but this question is probably for beginner/intermediate section again. Exuse me for boring explanations again experts...

Sorry, Misho - I've already been ostracized from the Beginner/Intermediate forums, should I not bother to post at all?

Quote

2H-P-P with:

A5
J63
K542
Q763 

With hand in example he will balance with 2NT.

I've had two posters (one which I've marked as a friend) imply that bidding on this hand is standard expert practice (or at least not necessarily bad.) How do the rest of you feel?