[gurgistan]

Scoring: IMP

This is my very first hand of precision. I am dealer.

I open 1♣. Partner responds 1♥. Game is on. I rebid my longest suit, 2♦. Partner rebids 2♠. I am happy enough in no trumps so I bid 2N. Partner bids 3♥. I take this to be his second suit, and put him in game, 4♥.

Could someone please evaluate my bidding and my reasoning?

---

[TylerE]

2NT is terrible. Bid 3♣. Why would 3♥ be his *second* suit. It's his FIRST suit.

[cloa513]

I don't think 2NT is bad since you have already expressed an off-shape hand with 2D with your first bid. Are you using standard precision with no extras? Italian Asking bids would help- Asking for diamonds support would be a good idea.
3C would say 5/5 at least and possibly if responder is minimum then despite the high card strength, game is possibly off without a really good fit.
After 1C,1H,2D,2NT, partner can bid 3C as a fourth suit ask so he must have 6H, if he has good diamonds or else a void and considerable extras and 6 good hearts then he can continue over 4H so basically no real problem with the bidding. If you were really flat, then you wouldn't bid 2D even with 5 diamonds instead bid 1NT at the first response

[gurgistan]

TylerE, on Sep 16 2010, 09:29 PM, said:

2NT is terrible. Bid 3♣. Why would 3♥ be his *second* suit. It's his FIRST suit.

The problem with my assuming ♥ was his second suit is that I put us in game and we could only have 6 hearts between us!

How am I to know ♥ is his first suit? Why is ♠ not his first suit? He bid ♠ spades first after his conventional 1♥ (telling me game is on).

[gurgistan]

cloa513, on Sep 16 2010, 10:38 PM, said:

I don't think 2NT is bad since you have already expressed an off-shape hand with 2D with your first bid. Are you using standard precision with no extras? Italian Asking bids would help- Asking for diamonds support would be a good idea.
3C would say 5/5 at least and possibly if responder is minimum then despite the high card strength, game is possibly off without a really good fit.
After 1C,1H,2D,2NT, partner can bid 3C as a fourth suit ask so he must have 6H, if he has good diamonds or else a void and considerable extras and 6 good hearts then he can continue over 4H so basically no real problem with the bidding. If you were really flat, then you wouldn't bid 2D even with 5 diamonds instead bid 1NT at the first response

I am playing standard precision with no extras.

It would be nice to have a schema for replies to the 1♣ 1♥ sequence when I as opener know that game is on.

[cloa513]

Standard Precision
1H response to 1C promises 5H and 8+HCP
You are not playing basic precision then.

[hanp]

Your reasoning was very good on this hand. Partner showed 8+ points, 6+ hearts and 4+ spades. You showed diamonds, then denied 3 hearts or 4 spades, and then raised hearts with your doubleton.

After 3H, you have quite a good hand for partner. If you have the argeement, you could bid 4C: a new suit at the 4-level shows a good hand for the last bid suit.

I live this kind of precision auction very much. It's so natural that I'd almost say this is the wrong forum for it.

[gurgistan]

cloa513, on Sep 17 2010, 04:04 AM, said:

Standard Precision
1H response to 1C promises 5H and 8+HCP
You are not playing basic precision then.

As I understood it, in response to my 1♣:

1♥ is 8hcp+ and is game forcing. I did not know it said anything about hearts.

1♦ is 0-7 hcp and tells me game is not on.

[hanp]

Yeah it shows hearts.1H, 1S, 1NT, 2C and 2D are all natural and 8+.

[helene_t]

If 1♦ is 0-7 and 1♥ is 8+, what would other responses show?

Classical precision responses to 1♣ are:
1♦: 0-7
1♥/1♠: 8+, 5+ suit
1NT: 8+ balanced, 5m332 allowed
2♣/♦: 8+, 5+ suit, unbalanced or (possibly) semi-balanced

With 4441-types and 8+ points there are two schools:
The "impossible negative": start with 1♦, then jump in your singleton (or jump in notrumps if opener bids your singleton).
The "unusual positive": 2♥/♠ or 3♣/3♦ shows a singleton in that suit, 444 in the other suits and 8+ points.

Now for your problem:

If 1♥ was artificial then partner has shown 5+ spades and 4+ hearts so you bid 3NT. But you should bid 3♣ at your third turn.

If 1♥ was natural then partner has shown 6+ hearts and 4+ spades so you can bid 4♥ or make some slam try.

[dake50]

So common for convention-itis (play any new convention that gets promoted around me) to not even see why precision was designed. GF early so many subtle inferences may be injected into exploring auctions. Here, a 6th heart, 4+S, could have bid 4C to show CA and H: Kx fit.

[gurgistan]

helene_t, on Sep 17 2010, 05:22 AM, said:

With 4441-types and 8+ points there are two schools:
The "impossible negative": start with 1♦, then jump in your singleton (or jump in notrumps if opener bids your singleton).
The "unusual positive": 2♥/♠ or 3♣/3♦ shows a singleton in that suit, 444 in the other suits and 8+ points.

Thanks to everyone who replied.

Impossible Negative versus Unusual Positive.

Which approach is more common?

Would partner state which approach he plays on his profile at BBO?

[Stephen Tu]

Unusual positive is much more common than impossible negative these days, I think. Unfortunately there are a lot of different ways to play the unusual positive. In principle the responses from 2♥ onwards can be used somewhat arbitrarily, some unu pos methods collapse all the hand types into one or two bids, and/or split them up into different strength ranges.

I think 2h/2s as natural weak jump-shift semi-positives (6 cd suit, 4-7, NF) are more common than showing singletons though as Helene suggests.

Precision really isn't the sort of system you want to play with casual pick-up partners; find a regular partner if you want to play Precision, agree to a book like either Precision Today by Berkowitz/Manley or Precision in the 90s by Rigal.

[bucky]

gurgistan, on Sep 17 2010, 05:03 AM, said:

As I understood it, in response to my 1♣:

1♥ is 8hcp+ and is game forcing. I did not know it said anything about hearts.

1♦ is 0-7 hcp and tells me game is not on.

This is not basic standard precision. You need to go over your notes. Just curious, if 1♦ is 0-7 and 1♥ is any 8+, what you think 1♠ or 1NT response to 1♣ should be?

[spotlight7]

Hi:

1C-1S shows 8+ and 5+ spades, 1C-1NT=8-10 balanced

and 1C-2C or 2D shows 5+ in the suit bid and 8+HCP.

If you go to

www.bridgewithdan.com/systems

you can download(for free) a copy of Rigal's Precision in the 90s.

It is one of the best Precision books ever written.

The first half of the book outlines basic Precision and the second half suggests

solutions to various problems in Precision bidding.

Regards,
Robert

[bucky]

That site has a 1-page summary of precision system claimed to be based on Rigal's precision book. It doesn't offer download of the actual book, neither do I think it should unless it gets copyright. But I just want to point out that the statement of "you can download(for free) a copy of Rigal's Precision in the 90s" is inaccurate.

[spotlight7]

Hi:

I downloaded a number of items from Dan's page.

Currently I own two copies of Rigal Precision in the 90s.

If they ain't selling any more books, it does not cost to allow for free downloads.

C.C. Wei's Original Precision book is available on the net for "free."

It was published sometime in the 70s as I recall.

Located at

Precision Club - 99

This link works since I already tried it.

Do not download any books from the net if it upsets you.

If they are out of print, legal complications would seem to be zip.

Regards.
Robert

[mgoetze]

spotlight7, on Sep 17 2010, 09:02 PM, said:

Rigal's Precision in the 90s.

It is one of the best Precision books ever written.

Oh dear... it happens to be the only book on Precision I ever bought and I found it tremendously disappointing. Guess I needn't bother trying any of the other ones, then.

[Free]

The way I see it, the 1♥ response shows 8+HCP and 5+♥ (so yes, game is on but you know something about shape as well).

The 2NT bid is fine, you don't want to rebid 3♦, and the chances of a ♣ fit are small.

After 3♥ partner shows a 6-4. I'd cuebid 3♠, but that might be non-standard. However you should know what the difference is between rebidding the 6 card suit first, and showing a second suit first. With 6-4, after 1♣-1♥-2♦ responder can bid 2♥ showing 6+♥, but he can show his ♠s first as well. If he bids 2♥, and opener bids 2♠, the 4-4♠ fit won't be lost.