[ONEferBRID]

gnasher, on Sep 9 2010, 12:25 PM, said:

I'm going to test the strength of Bluecalm's blood vessels by suggesting:

  1♦-1♥
  2♠-3♠
  4♥

Talking of things that Bluecalm doesn't like, if 1♦-1♥;1♠ were forcing you could then play 1♦-1♥;2♠ as artificial, covering various strong hands including this one.

I think you may have something here. ( I'm assuming you think this 4 loser hand is strong enough for a game forcing SJS ).
[ This sequence can only be used over a 1m open and a 1H response ] .

I'm going to expand it a bit ( but have not thought it thru yet ... ) by using a relay to get more ways for Responder to show his hand.
For example you can have 2 ways to bid 3H -- one to show 5 cards and the other to show 6+ cards:

1D - 1H
2S! ( GF, SJS, maybe artificial ) ??

......- 3C! ( relay to 3D! )
3D! - ??
......- 3H! = 5h, no 4d, no 4s ; whereas a direct 3H( over 2S!) = 6+h, no 4s
...or -4H! = 5h, 4s

etc, etc

[aguahombre]

Everything Cascade said agrees with everything I believe about the opening hand. 4D means something else, 2NT means something else (for me) and I can't think of a righteous rebid. If I try 2S, and get raised to 3 ---there is no assurance responder has five hearts; but I guess I am stuck with that, even without 2S being artificial.

[Pict]

2C - 2D
3D - 3H
4H

This hand is good enoughto risk playing in a high level diamond misfit.

[pooltuna]

Cascade, on Sep 9 2010, 02:17 PM, said:

A control rich 17 with a seventh diamond is very good for 1♦ 1♥; 3♦

When partner bids our fragment our hand has improved some more.

It seems wrong that you make the same bid on this fitting monster as you would on a weaker hand with fewer diamonds and a stiff heart.

Maybe this rebid has evolved into something different (and significantly stronger) in 2/1 but in other standard systems 3♦ certainly shows a weaker hand - Truscott's bidding dictionary describes the range as ?15-18, Crowhurst's Acol Index as about 7 playing tricks. As far as I can tell Hardy does not define the range simply saying that the jump rebid shows a six-card suit.

By both measures above this hand is significantly stronger than a non-forcing jump rebid.

The scoring method and the vulnerability does not bode well for Justin's choice either IMO. IMV you need to take a risk with this hand and put up with the variance.

[kfay]

Pict, on Sep 9 2010, 02:31 PM, said:

2C - 2D
3D - 3H
4H

This hand is good enoughto risk playing in a high level diamond misfit.

[hrothgar]

Hrothgar's nomination for the world's worst auction


1♦ - 1♥
2♣* - P**

* If I can survive this round....
** You can't

[Apollo81]

Strong hands with 3-card support for partner's major and a long minor are a known problem in standard and 2/1.

[junyi_zhu]

the_dude, on Sep 9 2010, 03:48 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

Playing 2/1, how can we get to 4H on this hand? (no opposition bidding)

More to the point, after 1D - 1H, what is North's rebid?

My system is simple, I open 2D to show about 19, single suited or balanced.
So 2D 2H(relayed) 3D 3H 4H looks quite normal.

[petterb]

gnasher, on Sep 9 2010, 12:25 PM, said:

I'm going to test the strength of Bluecalm's blood vessels by suggesting:

  1♦-1♥
  2♠-3♠
  4♥

Talking of things that Bluecalm doesn't like, if 1♦-1♥;1♠ were forcing you could then play 1♦-1♥;2♠ as artificial, covering various strong hands including this one.

If 1♠ is forcing and 2♠ is artificial, why would responder take away a whole bidding level by bidding 3♠?

This makes it very difficult for opener to describe his hand.

[gnasher]

petterb, on Sep 9 2010, 11:56 PM, said:

If 1♠ is forcing and 2♠ is artificial, why would responder take away a whole bidding level by bidding 3♠?

This makes it very difficult for opener to describe his hand.

I was suggesting two different ways to bid the hand, in two different systems.

In the first sequence, where responder bid 3♠, 2♠ was a natural jump shift.

Then I suggested playing 2♠ as artificial and multi-meaning. I didn't specify how the auction would continue after that.

[bucky]

TylerE, on Sep 9 2010, 10:49 AM, said:

1D-1H
3D-3H
4H

Looks pretty normal. I think 3♦ by north is pretty much a wtp.

Yes, but 3H is NOT.

[bucky]

MFA, on Sep 9 2010, 11:38 AM, said:

It is reasonable to play 1♦-1♥-4♦ as a strong 7-3.

Most play it as strong 6-4 though.

[bluecalm]

Standard bidding is:

1♦ 1♥
3♦ pass

Of course standard sucks here.
One of those situations where changing your system will reap bigger benefits than improving your judgment.

If you play gazilli this hand is wtp (because you either go through 2♣ forcing or use 2NT as showing 6+♦-3♥ if that's your choice).
Playing precision the hand is truly WTP. You are automatically in game before you even start thinking how to bid this.

With Gazilli it goes:

1♦ - 1♥
2♣* - 2♥**
3/4♥ - 4♥

2♣ = either natural or any 17+
2♥ = weak, not GF even opposite 17+
rest natural

In precision it goes (assuming Meckwell simplified base):

1♣ - 1♦
2♦ - 2♥
4♥

[bucky]

I think this might be a hand where big club system wins over standard bidding. After 1♦ 1♥, 3♦ seems the bid that is least distorting, although it is pretty heavy with the actual hand. It's possible that a clever 1♠ or 2♣ rebid from opener might work out better on this hand, but they will often lose on others.

[bluecalm]

Quote

1♦-1♥
  2♠-3♠
  4♥

Talking of things that Bluecalm doesn't like, if 1♦-1♥;1♠ were forcing you could then play 1♦-1♥;2♠ as artificial, covering various strong hands including this one.

Oh c'mon. I have nothing against playing 1♠ not being limited to 17 or w/e. I just say you can pass that with weakish hand hence it's NF. I think I would agree with followers of this style what hand bid this way. I just call the bid which can be passed NF and apparently other people call it forcing as it's usually not passed

I am all for using some bid to show 6+♦-3 in partner's major (or to use multimeaning bids when it's one of the options). I usually use 2NT for those hands playing precision or polish club (cause natural 2NT is not needed there). If you play Gazilli you can do that too with either 2♠ or 2NT.
The problem arises if partner bids ♠ instad of ♥. If you play Gazilli you can still use 2♥ as multimeaning (cause all the monster's go to 2♣ anyway). I guess in real standard you are not going to bid 2♥ though !

[ONEferBRID]

We've seen where 3C! has been used as an artificial GF, SJS such as in:
1M - 1NT!
3C!

or
1D - 1S
3C!

Using gnasher's idea ( of 2S! ) for the 1H response, partner has 2 additional rebids that he otherwise wouldn't have if 3C! were used ( namely 2NT and 3C ) :

1D - 1H
2S!

and you can also use it for a 1C open:
1C - 1H
2S!

[Crunch3nt]

If you play a standard multi-two diamonds, this hand qualifies easily for 8 PT.

If not, and you are playing standard, just rebid 2NT anyway. You get to to 3NT or 4H. WTP?

The auction (not playing Gazilli or 2NT=3-6) 1m - 1M; 3m should deny 3M.

[aguahombre]

"If ....you are playing standard, just rebid 2NT anyway. You get to to 3NT or 4H. WTP?" (crunch3nt)

That is the most enticing "fake it" I have read, unless there are people whose initial responses are such that they can pass 2NT (I didn't say their responses suck ).

Obviously some artificial rebid after 1♦ 1♥ is better for this case; but I was waiting for a way of dealing with the hand absent gadgets. I really hated 2S if not a toy, and 3♦ seemed to head toward both wrong strain and wrong level.

[kayin801]

How bad is a 3♥ rebid? Just throwing that out there, though I don't feel comfortable making it.

(I would bid 1♦-1♥-3♦-P)

[aguahombre]

Well, other than also not being GF and telling pard the wrong number of hearts held? Am trying to read about the least horrible game forcing bid which allows us to uncover a 5-3 heart fit, if there is one.