[JLOGIC]

Sorry I thought you said 5 bad spades without a club stopper, you said 5 bad spades WITH a club stopper.

Yes, that is certainly a problem.

[gnasher]

jdonn, on Aug 29 2010, 02:14 AM, said:

It would be good to agree over 3♠ that 4♣/4♦ are artificial slam tries (flags?) for hearts/spades. This could be part of a more general agreement about when it's not clear what trumps are and you are at this level so I don't think it's so far-fetched.

It's not far-fetched to have that general agremeent, but I'm not sure if it should apply here. Could responder be 4243, and want to bid a natural 4♦?

[qwery_hi]

BudH, on Aug 28 2010, 02:36 PM, said:

Phil, on Aug 28 2010, 05:13 PM, said:

Two auctions came up in bidding practice today. Would appreciate your opinions about what they mean (no interference):

1. 2N - 4♥ - 4♠ - 5N

2. 1♥ - 1♠ - 3♦ - 3♥ - 4♣

thanks

1. Grand Slam Force

There are other ways to give a choice of 6♠ or 6NT. Such as transferring to THREE spades and then jumping to 5NT.


2. Control in clubs in support of a heart contract.

Aren't there other ways to find out if opener has 2/3 top trumps? So why should 5NT be GSF here?

[bluecalm]

Quote

Could responder be 4243, and want to bid a natural 4♦?

Why wouldn't he bid 4♦ as his 2nd bid with that hand though ? (or 3NT if clubs are heavy).
Even playing artificial 3♦ (like OP) which doesn't really show diamonds it's quite safe because if opener doesn't have diamonds (as the original hand) he has 6+ hearts.
Giving false preference with 4 card support to what is normally 5+ card suit is bizarre idea to me.

[Phil]

bluecalm, on Aug 29 2010, 01:18 PM, said:

Quote

Could responder be 4243, and want to bid a natural 4♦?

Why wouldn't he bid 4♦ as his 2nd bid with that hand though ? (or 3NT if clubs are heavy).
Even playing artificial 3♦ (like OP) which doesn't really show diamonds it's quite safe because if opener doesn't have diamonds (as the original hand) he has 6+ hearts.
Giving false preference with 4 card support to what is normally 5+ card suit is bizarre idea to me.

I don't think its an accurate characterization to call 3♦ 'artificial'. It is nominally a natural call, however it may be a fragment in some cases.

Raising to 4♦ is fine with a 4243 if partner runs back to hearts or presses on with diamonds, but when partner is 1543 we might be playing a lousy 5♦ cold for 3N. I see nothing wrong with a false preference to 3♥ with a doubleton, even if 3♦ promises at least four.

I know you have a problem with these ambiguous jump shifts, and I shared this view when I started posting on the forums. Methods like strong club, Gazzilli, PC, Acol and even SEF avoid the need to make calls like 3♦ with good hands. These methods create other issues, and nothing is perfect.

2/1 is the lingua franca of the USA, and we must figure out the best ways to be able to cope with these occasionally awkward sequences.

[gnasher]

bluecalm, on Aug 29 2010, 07:18 PM, said:

Why wouldn't he bid 4♦ as his 2nd bid with that hand though ? (or 3NT if clubs are heavy).

Because with KQJx Qx Jxxx xx you want to be able to get to 3NT opposite x AJxxx AKxx AQJ, 4♥ opposite Ax AKJxx AKxx xx, and 5♦ opposite Axx AJxxx AKQx x.

Quote

Even playing artificial 3♦ (like OP) which doesn't really show diamonds

This hand was posted in the "SAYC and 2/1" forum. It is therefore safe to assume that the jump shift shows what a jump shift would show in SAYC or in the system that is commonly called "2/1".

Regarding the merits of playing well-defined jump shifts, I think we all got your point the first time.

[Mbodell]

qwery_hi, on Aug 29 2010, 02:10 AM, said:

BudH, on Aug 28 2010, 02:36 PM, said:

Phil, on Aug 28 2010, 05:13 PM, said:

Two auctions came up in bidding practice today. Would appreciate your opinions about what they mean (no interference):

1. 2N - 4♥ - 4♠ - 5N

2. 1♥ - 1♠ - 3♦ - 3♥ - 4♣

thanks

1. Grand Slam Force

There are other ways to give a choice of 6♠ or 6NT. Such as transferring to THREE spades and then jumping to 5NT.


2. Control in clubs in support of a heart contract.

Aren't there other ways to find out if opener has 2/3 top trumps? So why should 5NT be GSF here?

I've never played GSF. But I'm not sure there are other ways to find out about the trump quality. If responder has a void, and hence keycard wouldn't tell the story (necessarily) about trump, then how else would they do it?

[JLOGIC]

I agree with gnasher, 4D over:

1H 1S
3D 3H
3S 4D

is natural to me, and 4C is sadly coming in either major.

[JLOGIC]

Mbodell, on Aug 29 2010, 02:01 PM, said:

qwery_hi, on Aug 29 2010, 02:10 AM, said:

BudH, on Aug 28 2010, 02:36 PM, said:

Phil, on Aug 28 2010, 05:13 PM, said:

Two auctions came up in bidding practice today. Would appreciate your opinions about what they mean (no interference):

1. 2N - 4♥ - 4♠ - 5N

2. 1♥ - 1♠ - 3♦ - 3♥ - 4♣

thanks

1. Grand Slam Force

There are other ways to give a choice of 6♠ or 6NT. Such as transferring to THREE spades and then jumping to 5NT.


2. Control in clubs in support of a heart contract.

Aren't there other ways to find out if opener has 2/3 top trumps? So why should 5NT be GSF here?

I've never played GSF. But I'm not sure there are other ways to find out about the trump quality. If responder has a void, and hence keycard wouldn't tell the story (necessarily) about trump, then how else would they do it?

Texas then a new suit = exclusion.

Han would say GSF is good here in case you have 2 voids I was thinking it might be somewhat beneficial not to show your void, but it really isn't that useful to play GSF.

However, I have never heard of anything else useful for texas then 5N since we have jacoby then 5N and a bunch of other bids, and that is just what it has traditionally meant.

[gnasher]

JLOGIC, on Aug 29 2010, 09:22 PM, said:

Texas then a new suit = exclusion.

If that's Exclusion, and a three-level transfer followed a new suit at the five level is a 5332 shape responding to Keycard (as suggested by Fred in this thread), how do we set trumps and start cue-bidding?

Quote

I was thinking it might be somewhat beneficial not to show your void

You can mitigate that disadvantage of Exclusion by sometimes using it when you don't have a void, but just an ordinary Blackwood hand with the ace of the Exclusion suit.

[JLOGIC]

gnasher, on Aug 29 2010, 03:49 PM, said:

JLOGIC, on Aug 29 2010, 09:22 PM, said:

Texas then a new suit = exclusion.

If that's Exclusion, and a three-level transfer followed a new suit at the five level is a 5332 shape responding to Keycard (as suggested by Fred in this thread), how do we set trumps and start cue-bidding?

I don't have any way to do this. Using keycard we can often find out about specific aces or kings. If we don't have a slam force, quantitative bidding usually works out fine. I don't really care if I have to bid keycard and then 6 when I have enough values for slam but I'm not sure if I'm off an AK of a suit, they often don't find the lead anyways.

I'm sure there are some auctions where being able to cuebid would be useful but I can't say I remember missing having that ability. I think quantitative bidding is underrated on hands where we don't have a slam force, and I think cuebidding vs keycard is overrated on hands where we do have a slam force. And when I'm not 1 suited I can just show my second suit naturally so partner can evaluate that way.

[JLOGIC]

gnasher, on Aug 29 2010, 03:49 PM, said:

You can mitigate that disadvantage of Exclusion by sometimes using it when you don't have a void, but just an ordinary Blackwood hand with the ace of the Exclusion suit.

Except that it's pretty rare that we have a hand that we know can't make 7 opposite all the keycards since partner might have a source of tricks. I'd feel pretty dumb going through this route and missing 7 because partner has KQJxx of the suit I showed a void in and it would be trivial for him to count 13 if I had just gone through normal blackwood. I don't think it's worth this risk.

[Phil]

gnasher, on Aug 29 2010, 03:49 PM, said:

how do we set trumps and start cue-bidding?

If you play re-transfers so that:

1N - 2♥
2♠ - 3♥
3♠

3♥ sets spades as trump, responder's next call can be a cue.

Not sure how to accomplish this over a 2N opener, unless some play re-transfers (?).

[tgoodwinsr]

I am very far from expert in SA, 2/1, or SAYC bidding, so my opinion may not be worth anything. Still, I think it must be very hard on a partnership to bid, say, 1H-1S; 3D-3H; 3S or 1H-1S; 3D-3H; 4C and still not know which suit (if any) is trumps. From the comments here, it doesn't seem that anybody knows just how many diamonds opener shows via 3D, or how many hearts responder shows via 3H, or how many clubs opener shows via 4C. Maybe all of this is manageable, but I have my doubts. Wouldn't life be simpler if 3D showed four (or more) diamonds and 3H showed three hearts?

[Phil]

tgoodwinsr, on Aug 29 2010, 05:51 PM, said:

I am very far from expert in SA, 2/1, or SAYC bidding, so my opinion may not be worth anything. Still, I think it must be very hard on a partnership to bid, say, 1H-1S; 3D-3H; 3S or 1H-1S; 3D-3H; 4C and still not know which suit (if any) is trumps. From the comments here, it doesn't seem that anybody knows just how many diamonds opener shows via 3D, or how many hearts responder shows via 3H, or how many clubs opener shows via 4C. Maybe all of this is manageable, but I have my doubts. Wouldn't life be simpler if 3D showed four (or more) diamonds and 3H showed three hearts?

Yes it would be simpler if 3♦ promised a real suit, but there are some hands that are difficult to bid if you can't make a jump shift.

I think if you gave it some more consideration I think you would find that playing 3♥ as a preference not promising real support that it is a superior approach.

[gnasher]

tgoodwinsr, on Aug 29 2010, 11:51 PM, said:

Wouldn't life be simpler if 3D showed four (or more) diamonds and 3H showed three hearts?

Life might be simpler, but it wouldn't necessarily be better. As opener, I want to be able to bid something sensible with a 2632 19-count; as responder, I want to be able to reach a 5-2 heart with when it's right.

[mike777]

As a nonexpert I guess I would j/s into a 2 card clb suit and almost never in a 3 card d suit...I see many experts here play other.

Clearly nonexperts have a huge problem backing into a second suit once a majorsuit fitis found/suggested.

--------------

In any event the discussion of how real experts back into a second fit is very interesting if not confusing at times.

---


excellent point about responder having a void on the first one.

[mgoetze]

Phil, on Aug 29 2010, 11:58 PM, said:

Yes it would be simpler if 3♦ promised a real suit, but there are some hands that are difficult to bid if you can't make a jump shift.

I think if you gave it some more consideration I think you would find that playing 3♥ as a preference not promising real support that it is a superior approach.

And with even more consideration one might reinvent Gazilli or Riton...

[bluecalm]

Quote

From the comments here, it doesn't seem that anybody knows just how many diamonds opener shows via 3D, or how many hearts responder shows via 3H, or how many clubs opener shows via 4C. Maybe all of this is manageable, but I have my doubts. Wouldn't life be simpler if 3D showed four (or more) diamonds and 3H showed three hearts?

People actually know how many diamonds 3♦ shows in SA. It's 3 diamonds.
If only 3 diamonds though then 6+hearts. Actually if the shape was 3-7-2-1 then it might be 2 diamonds too
You may think of 3♦ bid as showing 9+cards in reds though

As to 3♥ showing 3 hearts.
That would probably be playable if opener is guaranteed to have 5+-5+ (still not the best for sure though). However if he can be 5-4+ or even 6-3/7-2 then you have 2 things to worry about:

1)opener having 3card spade support
2)opener having club fragment with a stopper

Because of 1) you don't want to bid anything higher than 3♥ with 5♠-2♥ because you might miss 5-3♠ fit.
Because of 2) youd don't want to bid 4♦ even with 4 of them if you have little something in clubs because it will look kinda silly if opener had say: x AKJxx AKxx KJx and you belong to 3NT.

Because of all these things you have to in general choose a bid which leaves most options open. By doing this however you don't say much about your hand so in response opener has to choose a bid which leaves the most options open too.
As it happens those bids are usually the lowest available bids (or 2nd lowest) hence all the discussion about:

1♥ - 1♠
3♦ - 3♥
3♠ - 3NT
4♣ = ?

1♥ - 1♠
3♦ - 3♥
3♠ - 4♣
4♦ = ?
etc.

So far both partners were happy to bid in a way to leave most options open but now they are on kind of high level and it's time to make some agreements as to who actually holds what

Quote

Regarding the merits of playing well-defined jump shifts, I think we all got your point the first time.

Yes you are right. With this post I officially stop criticizing this part of SA.

Quote

I'm sure there are some auctions where being able to cuebid would be useful but I can't say I remember missing having that ability. I think quantitative bidding is underrated on hands where we don't have a slam force, and I think cuebidding vs keycard is overrated

This is interesting and opposite to what people think where I play.
I don't have strong opinion but I think system without keycard would be playable but system without cuebids would be rather bad.

[mike777]

ok if I am 3-7-2-1 and I cannot open 2c then I am forced to rebid my hearts.


not perfect but I aint jump shifting into a 2 card d suit