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What now? Precision question

#1 User is offline   Hairy_Scot 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 14:07

You are dealer holding:-



Bidding goes:-

1 p 2 p
2NT p 4 p
?
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#2 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 14:26

4 - Kickback.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#3 User is offline   TSMYOYO 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 14:33

blackshoe, on Aug 28 2010, 03:26 PM, said:

4 - Kickback.


What is kickback?

What is logic behind 4 bid?
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#4 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 14:42

If 2 and 4 were natural then 4 should show strong hand with solid diamonds in that case we can count at lesat 13tricks in 7NT if aces are not missing.
I bid RKCB whatever way you have for that and bid 7NT having all keycards and 6 lacking one (because then they could open hearts before we establish diamonds.

Quote

4♥ - Kickback.


I doubt kickback is standard. I don't think it's neither necessary nor especially useful. Playing it also require a lot of partnership work.
I would prefer to have cuebid available in that auction instead of "kickback".

Quote

What is kickback?


It's a convention which uses bids below 4NT as RKCB in the minor leaving you more space as well as 4NT for other purposes (like natural to play for example o some kind of general slam invite)
There are many versions as to what bid is kickback in various situations.
The convention is virtually unknown in some parts of the world but popular in NA from what this forum seems to suggest.
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#5 User is offline   Hairy_Scot 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 14:48

Post deleted
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#6 User is offline   TSMYOYO 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 14:56

bluecalm, on Aug 28 2010, 03:42 PM, said:

Quote

What is kickback?


It's a convention which uses bids below 4NT as RKCB in the minor leaving you more space as well as 4NT for other purposes (like natural to play for example o some kind of general slam invite)
There are many versions as to what bid is kickback in various situations.
The convention is virtually unknown in some parts of the world but popular in NA from what this forum seems to suggest.

Thanks bluecalm. I had never heard of kickback.

I would think that 2 shows 8+ HCP and 5+.
4 could be "fast arrival" in which case 5 would be the limit.

However BW or RKCB does have merit since 5 is still available as a safety net if the response is unfavourable.
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#7 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 15:02

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4♦ could be "fast arrival"


No. With weak hand you never jump in minor above 3NT in GF auction.
Besides, how is 4 "arrival" ? :)
We don't want to play there afterall...
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#8 User is offline   kayin801 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 15:03

I would expect 4 to be slam invitational at worst with diamonds, diamonds, and more diamonds, since partner opted to skip an entire level of bidding and eliminated 3NT as a possibility. Use whatever your bid for RKC is and get to the right number of diamonds or 7NT.

Edit: sniped by bluecalm :)
I once yelled at my partner for discarding the 'wrong' card when he was subjected to a squeeze that I allowed by giving the wrong count with too high a card. Now he's allowed to pitch aces when the opponents have the king in the dummy. At trick 2. When he could have followed suit. And blame me.

East4Evil sohcahtoa 4ever!!!!!1
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#9 User is offline   TSMYOYO 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 15:13

bluecalm, on Aug 28 2010, 04:02 PM, said:

Quote

4♦ could be "fast arrival"


No. With weak hand you never jump in minor above 3NT in GF auction.
Besides, how is 4 "arrival" ? :)
We don't want to play there afterall...

OK, perhaps "fast arrival" is not quite the correct term, perhaps I should have used "large steps (jumps) when weak (min), small steps when strong" in line with the modern tendency to jump with weaker hands and go slowly with stronger hands.

I do agree that 4 could be slam invite but this can vary with different partnership styles.
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#10 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 15:52

what was 2D?
OK
bed
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#11 User is offline   cloa513 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 16:15

I'd say 4 is exactly the opposite- to play. 3 is a hand with slam potential - who would offer diamonds again over 2NT rather than just 3NT or offering 4 card major or clubs. 4 is to play unless you have an exceptional hand such a doubleton and top controls in the other suits, then you bid the 5. He stretched bidding 2 in the first place hoping for you to either bid the 3NT direct or another suit. Responses for 3: 3NT(diamonds support and good suit coverage but low slam potential, 4 poor diamonds support poor slam potential, other bids are cues.
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#12 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 16:40

Quote

I'd say 4♦ is exactly the opposite- to play. 3♦ is a hand with slam potential - who would offer diamonds again over 2NT rather than just 3NT or offering 4 card major or clubs. 4♦ is to play unless


You must've read the sequence wrong...
Maybe you missed that it's precision so 2 is 8+ and 1 is 16+ but playing 4 to play is beyond bad in every possible system here.
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#13 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 18:27

Hi:

Using Kickback 4H* ace asking, you can 'exchange' the meaning of 4NT and the Kickback bid. 4NT here would be a Heart cuebid.

Regards,
Robert
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#14 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 18:35

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Using Kickback 4H* ace asking, you can 'exchange' the meaning of 4NT and the Kickback bid. 4NT here would be a Heart cuebid.


Yes but then you lose space for cuebidding and for RKCB'ing from other hand.
I think cuebidding is in general much more important than blackwood.
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#15 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 18:45

bluecalm, on Aug 28 2010, 04:42 PM, said:

I doubt kickback is standard. I don't think it's neither necessary nor especially useful. Playing it also require a lot of partnership work.
I would prefer to have cuebid available in that auction instead of "kickback".

I didn't say it was standard (I agree it isn't). I disagree as to its usefulness, though. 4NT would replace the 4 control bid.

Quote

Quote

What is kickback?


It's a convention which uses bids below 4NT as RKCB in the minor leaving you more space as well as 4NT for other purposes (like natural to play for example o some kind of general slam invite)
There are many versions as to what bid is kickback in various situations.
The convention is virtually unknown in some parts of the world but popular in NA from what this forum seems to suggest.


Kickback is based on Jeff Rubens' "Useful Space" principle, and uses 4 of the denomination directly above trumps (including 4 where are trumps) as RKCB*. It's true that some work is required to ensure you know when the bid is kickback and when it is not. So what? If you want to do well at this game, you have to expect to work at it. :)

*If some other bid is RKCB, it ain't kickback.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#16 User is offline   cloa513 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 19:05

bluecalm, on Aug 28 2010, 05:40 PM, said:

Quote

I'd say 4♦ is exactly the opposite- to play. 3♦ is a hand with slam potential - who would offer diamonds again over 2NT rather than just 3NT or offering 4 card major or clubs. 4♦ is to play unless


You must've read the sequence wrong...
Maybe you missed that it's precision so 2 is 8+ and 1 is 16+ but playing 4 to play is beyond bad in every possible system here.

I saw its precision- it just depends on whether you allow partner to reach a little with KQJxxxxx or perhaps AQxxxx Jx(suit) Jx (suit). Do you rebid 3NT with KQx KQx xxx KQJx perhaps even four card major after 1,2?
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#17 User is offline   cloa513 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 19:09

Why bid 4 which wastes space to cue when 3 is available? If your hand is way shapely and strong then wouldn't a self-cue be more efficient i.e. 4 or 4 or 4 maybe making it exclusion blackwood.
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#18 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 19:36

4D shows a solid suit and asks for cues in every version of Precision I have ever played and with every partner with whom I have ever played. Hence 4H is not kickback for us, but a cue bid.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#19 User is offline   bluecalm 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 19:36

Quote

Why bid 4♦ which wastes space to cue when 3♦ is available? If your hand is way shapely and strong then wouldn't a self-cue be more efficient i.e. 4♣ or 4♥ or 4♠ maybe making it exclusion blackwood.


You may have solid diamonds and you want partner to know about this.
I don't see any point in driving to 4 with weakish hand bypassing 3NT and all lower partscores.
If my hand isn't GF I don't bid 2 with that.
I can bid 1 and then show maximum with long diamonds (by jumping to 3).
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#20 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2010-August-28, 20:28

bluecalm, on Aug 28 2010, 08:36 PM, said:

You may have solid diamonds and you want partner to know about this.

Meh, I doubt that getting the "I have solid trumps" message across is worth wasting the entire level of bidding space when partner has shown a balanced hand. It's usually much more important when partner is unbalanced.

Personally I think 4D should be keycard. Over 4D if it was natural I would def bid keycard myself, doesnt really matter what bid it is. In fact I'd strongly prefer it to be 4N than 4H with this hand since I don't want them to double 4H, and the extra space is not needed. It's a simple hand if we have them all we bid 7N, if we're off 1 we bid 6D.
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