[billw55]

♠x
♥AJxx
♦KJTxx
♣Kxx

IMPs, none vul, you deal and open 1♦. As predicted partner replies 1♠.

Do you prefer 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit, or rebidding a decent 5 card minor?

If you choose 1NT, how good would the diamond suit need to be to rebid it?

If you choose 2♦, what is the worst 5 card suit you would rebid?

If you choose 2♥, what are you smoking?

[vuroth]

I hate 1NT with a singleton, but I suspect I'm in the minority.

[helene_t]

1NT, but second choice is 2♣. Absolutely not 2♦! Playing Acol (1NT rebid shows extras) this is a wtp 2♣ rebid. OK some very old textbooks would say you have to open 1♥ to avoid the rebid problem. In any case, selling this hand as a 1-suiter is not an option. Calling the ♣Kxx a 4-card suit is a smaller lie.

[jjbrr]

im in for 1NT also.

[quiddity]

Also, over 1NT partner can easily show an invite with 4 hearts if he has that hand.

[Phil]

1N is fine. The modern style is to frequently raise partner on 3 and rebid 1N with a singleton. Some off-shape hands like 2452 should also rebid 1N.

If you think about it, 1N is the least of evils with the subject hand. 2♦ is awful on this suit, reversing is out with a 12 count, and 2♣ is misleading with a 3 card suit (but its a 2nd choice).

Partner should not automatically rebid a five card suit, even though your expected length is about 2.

This makes a rebid of 2 of a minor very dependable since it almost always promises 6 cards.

[Gerben42]

Yell at me but I'm going to bid 2♦. At least my intermediates are good. Give me Kxxxx and I'm really stuck.

[billw55]

This is a big reason I like bridge. You can ask a really basic question about an ordinary everyday hand and a routine auction, and get three different answers, from good players. I wish I had thought to put 2♣ as an option, dangit that I can't edit a poll.

[aguahombre]

helene_t, on Aug 26 2010, 09:49 AM, said:

OK some very old textbooks would say you have to open 1♥ to avoid the rebid problem.

Blowing the dust off Marshall Miles? I found some of his articles packed away with my birth certificate

Was it Kokish who actually made the 2C rebid into a convention? I don't know how it works, but would choose 2C anyway and hope things go well thereafter.

[hanp]

Gerben (Polish) and Fluffy (French) bid 2D, a few will bid 2C, most others will bid 1NT. Not a big deal.

[ArtK78]

1NT with a human partner, but 2♦ playing with GIB. GIB always assumes that you have no singletons if you rebid 1NT, so you can get to some very silly 5-1 fits if you rebid 1NT.

I don't think I can afford to bid 2♣ playing with GIB, either, although GIB makes short suit bids all the time.

[1eyedjack]

ArtK78, on Aug 26 2010, 05:37 PM, said:

you can get to some very silly 5-1 fits if you rebid 1NT.

Struggling a bit with this. With only a 5 card suit partner will, if bidding again, normally offer some alternative strain. As I would accept any alternative strain I do not expect to play in a 5-1 fit. Perhaps if the auction gets competitive there may be some pressure bids.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Gerben (Polish) and Fluffy (French) bid 2D

Someone got their flags mixed up

[Fluffy]

1eyedjack, on Aug 26 2010, 04:43 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Aug 26 2010, 05:37 PM, said:

you can get to some very silly 5-1 fits if you rebid 1NT.

Struggling a bit with this. With only a 5 card suit partner will, if bidding again, normally offer some alternative strain. As I would accept any alternative strain I do not expect to play in a 5-1 fit. Perhaps if the auction gets competitive there may be some pressure bids.

you are overating basic methods, partner cannot offer diamamons nor clubs as alternative strain unless you play something unnusual (and I think bad)

I am happy with 2♦ and I am used of this style wich fails from time to time, not because we play 2♦ too often, but becasue we miss some 5-4 heart fits.

[ArtK78]

1eyedjack, on Aug 26 2010, 11:43 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Aug 26 2010, 05:37 PM, said:

you can get to some very silly 5-1 fits if you rebid 1NT.

Struggling a bit with this. With only a 5 card suit partner will, if bidding again, normally offer some alternative strain. As I would accept any alternative strain I do not expect to play in a 5-1 fit. Perhaps if the auction gets competitive there may be some pressure bids.

I said that this was true when playing with Robots on BBO. The Robots assume that a 1NT rebid promises at least 2 cards in every suit, so they often rebid their 5 card major suit to play.

Not only did you only quote one sentence out of my post, but you only quoted a part of the sentence. Read the whole sentence. "GIB always assumes that you have no singletons if you rebid 1NT, so ..."

[kenrexford]

2♣ for me.

[bluecalm]

Good thing I play a system in which this problem is solved once and for all. Taking it from Meckwell precision 2♣ can be 4-4,5-5 or 5-3,5-4 either way in minors but thanks to limited openers (up to 15hcp) and responder not having 5♠-4+♥ (cause he bids 2♠/2♥ with that round before) I am in much better situation than all standard bidders or even polish club bidders.

The problem with rebidding 2♣ in standard is that you lose very good 4-4♥ partial or even 5-4♥ on bad day.
The problem with rebidding 1NT is that if you do that with stiff partner can't rebid his 5 card ♠ suit and you will lose very good 5-2♠ and 5-3♠ partials on hands when 1NT bidder have normal hand. You also lose good minor suit partials often (5-4 diamonds, 5-3 clubs).
The problem with 2♦ is obvious, it's not really an option for me.

Overall my opinion is that in standard'ish systems the best solution is to bid 1NT on those hands, same goes for 1-4-4-4.
Partner should be careful with only 5 spades and should in general not bid 2♠.

[awm]

I'm not really sure I understand the argument for 2♣. This call:

(1) Risks playing in a 4-3 club fit, even at the three-level opposite an invite.
(2) Risks playing in a 3-3 club fit when partner has 5413, despite 4-4 hearts.
(3) Makes very hard to find a 4-4 heart fit, even if partner is invite-plus.
(4) Does not substantially limit the hand's strength.
(5) Will often reach a light 3♣ because partner is compelled to raise.

In a recent thread in this same forum, we were asked for a rebid on a responder hand of KTxxx xx Jx ATxx after 1♦-1♠-2♣. Some very good players wanted to raise to 3♣ despite the light values. How would you feel as opener after having rebid 2♣ on a three-card suit like the hand we hold here?

It seems very clear to me that either of 2♦ or 1NT is better than 2♣.

[bluecalm]

Quote

It seems very clear to me that either of 2♦ or 1NT is better than 2♣.

I agree with your critique of 2♣. It's just hopeless if opener could be 5-4+ in majors and is afraid you may even have 17.

The same arguments (despite limiting strength as 2♦ is a bit more limited) goes for 2♦ call though. You may still play in 5-1 fit at 2level having 8 or 9 hearts on the side or in 5-2♦ diamond fit at 3 level when you belong in spade 5-2/5-3 partial or in NT partial.

[pooltuna]

Gerben42, on Aug 26 2010, 11:01 AM, said:

Yell at me but I'm going to bid 2♦. At least my intermediates are good. Give me Kxxxx and I'm really stuck.

WHAT!!! You stole my call! I just much prefer having 1NT promise at least 2♠s and 2♣s is not an option as I open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ with both xy45 and xy54 minimum openers.