[dkharty]

I have enjoyed playing a strong club system with a couple of partners--enough that I think a strong club base is my "ideal" match stylistically. But I have never been particularly happy with the 1D, 2C, and 2D components of the big club systems I have seen. I would like to play something along the lines of:

1C 11-13 balanced, OR unbalanced 11-15 with clubs, OR any 16+ unbalanced/17+ balanced (1D response is 0-7, OR GF opposite the minimum variety, etc.)
1D unbalanced 11-15 with 4+ diamonds
1H unbalanced 11-15 with 5+ hearts
1S unbalanced 11-15 with 5+ spades
1NT balanced 14-16 (including hands with 5 card major)

I'm not a system wonk by any means. So the following questions have come to mind:

1. Is this sort of 1C bid feasible? Or is it just too hard to unravel all the responses given the inevitable interference? (I have seen systems like Unassuming Club which has several hand types wrapped into the 1C opener, although it's quite different; are there any systems out there close to what I have in mind?)
2. What would a reasonable response structure to 1C look like? (I have played transfer positives with one partner, 1H=any 8-11 with another, I have no strong opinion about stuff like this)
3. What would be the best use for 2-level openers (given my first priority below)? I've thought about just playing weak twos in all four suits, which I've never seen; is this playable?

My priorities are: the system must be GCC-compliant (virtually all my live bridge is played in GCC events); I don't mind some complications in the 1C structure, if it buys simplicity elsewhere.

Thanks for any ideas.

[NickRW]

Multi way big club systems are certainly possible - look up Polish Club and Unassuming Club.

Without giving it any deep thought, I think maybe you are proposing to push a little too much into 1C with your specific example.

[shaztaz]

You could try out or at least look at an existing multi-way club system (say WJ2005) to start out. If you are proposing that the 11-13 balanced hands in 1C also include hands with a 5-card major, then you are going to run into trouble, I think. The 1C would be too overloaded. If you can stand having your 1M openings include 11-13 5332 hands, it should work out.

[helene_t]

I would prefer to have a natural 2♣ opener in your system. I don't care for the "Precision" 2♣ opener in WJ which shows 6+clubs or 5 clubs+4M, but if you open 2♣ with 10-15 and 6+ clubs, you would still have a narrower range for
1♣-1♦
2♣

You may still face problems in competition, though:
1♣-(1♠)-2♦-(pass)
?
Assuming that 2♦ means "I want to play 2♦ opposite the 11-13 bal but want to GF opposite the 16+", i.e. 8-11 points, it is not quit clear what to do with a 3415 14-count. I suppose you could agree to show that hand with 2NT. With a 3415 12-count you would have to pass.

[glen]

dkharty, on Jul 15 2010, 12:17 PM, said:

... I would like to play something along the lines of:

1C    11-13 balanced, OR unbalanced 11-15 with clubs, OR any 16+ unbalanced/17+ balanced (1D response is 0-7, OR GF opposite the minimum variety, etc.)
1D    unbalanced 11-15 with 4+ diamonds
1H    unbalanced 11-15 with 5+ hearts
1S    unbalanced 11-15 with 5+ spades
1NT  balanced 14-16 (including hands with 5 card major)
...

1.  Is this sort of 1C bid feasible?  ...
3.  What would be the best use for 2-level openers (given my first priority below)?  I've thought about just playing weak twos in all four suits, which I've never seen; is this playable?  ...

In this scheme the 1♣ opener is overloaded (albeit still feasible without change). For example after 1♣-2♠ (overcall by evil opp)-P-P-?, which hands are you passing and which ones are bidding at 2NT or 3X?

Imo (and this is very much a matter of personal preference), I would move some hand types out of 1♣, such as:

1♣: 11/12-14 balanced, OR unbalanced 11-16 with ♣s, OR any 17+ unbalanced/22+ balanced
1♦: unbalanced 11-16 with 4+♦s
1♥: unbalanced 11-16 with 5+♥s
1♠: unbalanced 11-16 with 5+♠s
1NT: balanced 14/15-17 (including hands with 5 card major)
2♣: 18-19 balanced
2NT: 20-21 balanced

Q. I've thought about just playing weak twos in all four suits, which I've never seen; is this playable?

A. Yes, and some have played this - for example see the two bids of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EHAA

[Siegmund]

Quote

1. Is this sort of 1C bid feasible? Or is it just too hard to unravel all the responses given the inevitable interference?

I think you've slightly overloaded it -- in particular having two kinds of 11-point hand, balanced, and clubs, isn't a popular choice. Not saying it's impossible to make it work; just that I haven't seen it work.

Quote

2. What would a reasonable response structure to 1C look like?

To be GCC-legal, all non-game-forcing responses except 1D must be natural. Transfers and immediate control- or HCP-showing are off the table. (1C has to be 15+ to allow any conventional response. If you really want to play transfer responses, you can consider a weak notrump and putting the 15-17 balanced hands into 1C instead - but that's hardly a 3-way club, that's just a strong club.)

Quote

3. What would be the best use for 2-level openers (given my first priority below)? I've thought about just playing weak twos in all four suits, which I've never seen; is this playable?

Again GCC-legal severely limits your options. None of the really useful weak artificial 2-bids are allowed.

Most pairs do use 2C as natural and moderate-strength. Weak twos in all four suits are, in principle, playable, if you can cope with opening all the club hands 1C. I personally have played semi-weak twos, where 2C/2D were 7-13 with 6-card suit and 2H/2S were 4-10, but not gone any lower than that on 2C.

A 2NT opening to show both minors and opening strength can take some pressure off of the 1m openings. (That, combined with rebidding 1M on the 4M5C hands, allows 1C-1banana-2C to promise a 6-card suit, for instance.)

[Wackojack]

If you find the 2C and 2D opening bids unsatisfactory because of possible 4 card majors in it, then have you thought of opening 2H and 2S with 4M and 5 or 6 in a minor? Then you can use a multi 2D to cater for weak majors (and some other strong hands) and open 1D for the diamond hands thus taking the 11-15 with clubs out of the 1 club openings. That is if the multi is legal in your part of the world.

[DinDIP]

dkharty, on Jul 15 2010, 11:17 AM, said:

1C    11-13 balanced, OR unbalanced 11-15 with clubs, OR any 16+ unbalanced/17+ balanced (1D response is 0-7, OR GF opposite the minimum variety, etc.)

<snip>

1.  Is this sort of 1C bid feasible?  Or is it just too hard to unravel all the responses given the inevitable interference?  (I have seen systems like Unassuming Club which has several hand types wrapped into the 1C opener, although it's quite different; are there any systems out there close to what I have in mind?)

In the early-mid 2000s Magnus Lindkvist played (with Peter Fredin) a system with a three-way club like this. His old system cards were available online (at ecats bridge) so you could check there. He was playing relays over the other suit openings and used some of those modules after 1C as well. The system card attachments provided quite a lot of information about how they handled intereference and, if you look at hand records from the BB and European Chmapionships they played in. you will get a good feel for the style.

David

[Crunch3nt]

I agree entirely about the inherent crappiness of 1D/2C/2D openings in big club systems.

My own very minority view is that you are better to put the 11-15 unbal with clubs into the 1D bid, leaving 1C as Swedish - 11-13 Bal or 16+.

This overloads the 1D opening but so what - it is only a minor. The opponents have to guess too.

[dkharty]

Wackojack, on Jul 25 2010, 05:03 AM, said:

That is if the multi is legal in your part of the world.

Unfortunately not.

[dkharty]

Crunch3nt, on Aug 2 2010, 08:00 PM, said:

I agree entirely about the inherent crappiness of 1D/2C/2D openings in big club systems.

My own very minority view is that you are better to put the 11-15 unbal with clubs into the 1D bid, leaving 1C as Swedish - 11-13 Bal or 16+.

This overloads the 1D opening but so what - it is only a minor. The opponents have to guess too.

That's interesting. Do you know of anyone who plays something like this? My knee-jerk reaction is, uh-oh, now the opponents have TWO two-way openers to preempt.

[Crunch3nt]

We sort of play it in Crunch, but not the same. Our 1S opening shows 5+ either minor, or both, no 4 card major, unbalanced 10-14. This is probably not allowed in most countries. Crunch is a HUM system.

The 1S opening works great. Over that we play 1NT invite+ relay, and minors as P/C. Very preemptive against them and accurate for us. We have had one bad board where we underestimated the size of our minor fit due to opposition bidding, but only one in about 40 1S openers.

I'm not sure about what regulations exist in US for responding to my nebulous 1D suggestion. I would play 1H relay giving up partscore accuracy for game / slam accuracy, but relay is not eveyone's cup of tea. Is 1H allowed systemically on a 3 card suit? If so don't see why reasonably natural continuations wont work.

[PrecisionL]

I recommend a Strong Club Base system and let 1♦ promise one or both 4-card Majors. Now you are not restrained in your responses to 1♣ and you could even take the 5-card Majors out of 1♣ similar to the Millennium Club by Lyle Poe (a book).

Now 2♣ and 2♦ openings are 6-cards with NO 4-cd major or 5 of the minor and 4 of the other minor.

In GCC you cannot use a 1♥ response as a relay to 1♦ but you can occasionally respond in a 3-cd ♥ suit.