[fuburules3]

Suppose you are playing a 1NT opener shows 15-17. You can pretend you are playing whatever your favorite structure is in response. How would you bid the following hands after 1NT-P-?

♠ AQxx
♥ xx
♦AQxx
♣ KJx

As I was taught I would typically look for a spade fit and if that failed, I would invite slam in NT and never mention the diamond suit (I don't believe I have the methods). Why (in "standard" bidding) is a slam in the major suit explored, but not the minor suit (pretend it's IMPS)?

Now try

♠ KJx
♥ xx
♦AQxx
♣AQxx

With this I think I would just bid 4NT to invite 6NT even if I were playing minor suit stayman, once again not even looking for a minor suit slam.

How would you bid these hands with your favorite partner?

[awm]

This issue is one of the reasons for opener sometimes suggesting a minor suit slam over the quantitative 4NT. For example, on the first hand after 1N-2♣-2♥-4N, opener can bid 5m to suggest that there may be a 4-4 minor fit slam.

Playing Walsh-based responses to 1NT with Elianna, I would bid 2♣ followed by 4N (if no spade fit) on the first hand. This can miss a diamond fit if she declines the invite. On the second one I would bid 2♠ minor suit stayman.

Playing somewhat more complicated methods with Sam, I would bid 2♣ (stayman) followed by 3♣ (relay) if no major suit fit has yet been established. This sequence allows me to find any fit below 3NT.

[quiddity]

Seems like opener can bid a minor suit over 4N to show a 5-card minor and offer choice of slams. He can bid 5N to explore for a 4-4 minor fit. At MP it's almost certainly not worth the effort but what about at imps? If opener has a balanced accept with a 4-card minor should he look for a fit?

[kenrexford]

The second would be easy in our methods. Responder could start with a 2NT relay to 3♣ and then could bid 4♠ to show 3244 shape and about 17 HCP. Or, he could relay and then bid 4♦ to show the same 3244 pattern but hesitant quantitative, about 15. With 16, he uses judgment to up-or-down the hand.

Had Responder held 4342 or some variant of 4-3 or 3-4 in the majors, 4-2 or 2-4 in the minors, a Puppet 3♣ sequence would start. If Opener has no 5-card major, and does not have the right 4-card major, Responder can eventually flag the 4-card minor (4♥ for clubs, 4♦ for spades) with slam interest.

With the first hand pattern (a 4-2 major holding, 4-3 minor holding), Stayman followed by 4NT will therefore show at least 3-3 in the minors, not 4-4 in the minors (because of 4-4-4-1 options), and no 5-card minor (would bid it over Stayman). Plus, with 4-3-3-3 or 3-4-3-3, Responder could have bid Puppet and then 4NT, or 4NT directly over 1NT. So, 3-3 in the minors is not possible. hence, 4NT must show 4-3 in the minors. because of this, I am thinking about a suggestion to Eichenbaum, that 4NT show one and 4NT the other 4-3.

[mohitz]

awm, on Aug 11 2010, 05:44 AM, said:

Playing somewhat more complicated methods with Sam, I would bid 2♣ (stayman) followed by 3♣ (relay) if no major suit fit has yet been established. This sequence allows me to find any fit below 3NT.

Lots of people play that in my part of the world too. Personally, i do not like it so much because it gives up on 3C as natural.

How do you handle hands with 4M and 5 clubs with a slam try say?

[awm]

mohitz, on Aug 11 2010, 12:23 AM, said:

How do you handle hands with 4M and 5 clubs with a slam try say?

1435 bids 3♥. This shows exactly 4♥, 0-1♠, 3-5 in each minor and at least game values. We can pattern out with 4♣ if slammish over partner's 3N.

4135 bids 3♠. Similarly, this shows 4♠, 0-1♥, 3-5 in each minor and at least game values.

(34)15 bids stayman, followed by 3♦. This shows 0-1♦, 4-6♣, 3-4 in each major, and denies a known major suit fit. If partner bids our 4M we can splinter with 4♦ of course.

(24)25 bids stayman and 3♣ relay. Knowing whether partner has four clubs is really valuable here so it's nice to find out. We can always bid 4♣ over 3N later which shows precisely this hand.

4M-6♣ starts with a transfer to the major. Next is 2NT showing game values with the major and clubs. Partner relays with 3♣ and next is 3♦ showing either of 4-6 or 5-5 in the major suit and clubs. Partner has several options over this, with 3♥ checking back for the hand type and normally showing three in our major suit, over which we bid either 3N (no slam interest) or 4♣ (4-6 slam try).

[aguahombre]

I vote for the Elianna stuff....too old for the headache of the Sam.

But put it in context: thinking either makes me yawn, or gives me the headache.

After Quant, we have gotten to a few minor slams over the years.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2010-August-11, 00:13

[Cyberyeti]

We play 1N-2♣-2♥-2♠ and 1N-2♣-2♦/♠-3♥ as minor suit stayman. Opener can now show various 4 and 5 card minor suits and hands. This deals with both of the above hands.

[fuburules3]

awm, on Aug 10 2010, 07:14 PM, said:

On the second one I would bid 2♠ minor suit stayman.

The variation of minor suit stayman I currently play would not let me bid it with a 4432 shape. What kind of hands would you bid it with and what are your followups? 3NT with no shortness and bidding a major suit with shortness?

[karlson]

I always thought that with a 4M-4m slam force playing standard you could just bid 1n-4♠. Is that bad for some reason? The 4-4 minors hand seems like an even easier 4♠.

At least the way I play is that over 4♠ opener bids 4n with a min, and then all suits get mentioned up the line.

With a slam invite you can bid either 1n-2♣-2x-4n or 1n-4♠.

[P_Marlowe]

fuburules3, on Aug 10 2010, 07:07 PM, said:

<snip>
Why (in "standard" bidding) is a slam in the major suit explored, but not the minor suit (pretend it's IMPS)?
<snip>

Simple answer:

One major purpose of the response structure is to find out which
is the best game.
Another to find a reasonable part score spot, if responder is rel.
weak.

Thos two things have to be figured out between 1NT and 3NT, so the
room for slam explorative moves is small, thats it.

With kind regards
Marlowe