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Riton revisited

#21 User is offline   wclass___ 

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Posted 2010-August-12, 14:45

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As to your first observation -- obviously, I did not mean to BLAST 4♥, although in a pinch the contract is odds-on. You would obviously make game tries on route.
Wow. Now you make game try with that hand? You are the man! But 4 sounds more fun, especially after your assessment that in a punch contract is odds-on. I bet it would be one of these ton of marginally bid games you are talking about. :P

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As to your second comment, I don't even know what you are talking about. First, in one example one auction occurs and in another a different auction occurs because they are meant to be different instances. Second, ability to bid intelligently obviously also means ability to pass intelligently, either of which is better than stumble-bunny guessing.

All i understand from this is that you haven't understood what i wanted to say. I tried to explain you that major suits in bridge auctions(especially competitive) are way more important than minor suits. It is really nice that you have found an easy call of 3 (after 1-[1] it would surely be slightly harder), but opponents have enough information to judge which way to go. They are likely to win auction just by bidding more , and all your efforts are pretty useless. If not, then you would end up in 3 also after 1-[1] start. I am not arguing that you would score bad when this bid comes up (1%?!), it is actually quite impossible with so restricted bid. But rather that in nowadays there are many way more logical and lucrative methods.

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As to your third comment, the 2M opening is not THAT rare. Any bid in bridge is "rare" in the sense that you might pass, you might open any of four suits at the one-level, you might open any number of suits at a higher level, and you might open any level of notrump. So, each one is "rare." But, a major-club two-suiter is not that rare.
What? If i compared your 2 with any other sane natural 2 opening i could use same argument, and my argument would be stronger because of frequency reasons.


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As to your fourth example, WHAT?!?!? You don't need to bid 4♣ because partner has a really good idea of your hand, and 3♦ occurs less than 2♦ anyway. I don't even understand that comment, at all. 
I don't see where i said that someone has4 to bid . But i don't get what you are saying in first sentence anyway. It sounds to me like you mean 4 as opener, because "partner with info" is obviously responder. I don't get.

Yes 3 will occur slightly less than 2, but it is again general advantage for opening 2 rather than 1. But not advantage for playing 2 opening bid as 54, e.g. i choose weak 2 in and use same argument. My argument is stronger in frequency reasons and also that my 2 bid is weaker, so more points around the table and more chance that opponents own hand and need to bid.

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As to the final question -- no. I was not joking. My partners and I had tons of unexpected pluses for lucrative doubles, tons of slams bid or avoided for great results, tons of -50 or -100 against their games, tons of marginal games bid but +110 tops for passing correctly, and the like. So, yes. The merits of the call were established quite well.

Would be interesting for me to go through these ton of boards and also your w2's boards or whatever which boards you sacrificed to play these outstanding openings. :P
Seeking input from anyone who doesn't frequently "wtp", "Lol" or post to merely "Agree with ..." --sathyab
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#22 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2010-August-12, 16:11

To kenrexford,

Then are all pros and cons relative?
Or could there be absolute advantage?
I happen to have seen advantage in those 2M bids 40 years ago and never been disabused of that advantage.


[edit]
Although ROMAN forbidden by ACBL. [for over a decade]
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#23 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2010-August-12, 16:53

dake50, on Aug 12 2010, 05:11 PM, said:

To kenrexford,

Then are all pros and cons relative?
Or could there be absolute advantage?
I happen to have seen advantage in those 2M bids 40 years ago and never been disabused of that advantage. Although forbidden by ACBL.

2M showing the major and clubs is perfectly GCC legal.

As to the contextual advantages or lack thereof, this is a general principle that seems to play itself out. For example, the more aggressive the competition, the more of a benefit to quick description.

A simpler example might be that of Flannery. Modern bidding styles tend to make Reverse Flannery more useful than Flannery, because the problem has changed.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
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