[InTime]

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How to bid these hands in SAYC, 2/1 or Precision?
Regards

[Cyberyeti]

Depends on your system of responses to a strong 2♣. Playing what I play 2C-2D-3D-3H would be a second negative, but a number of people play 2C-2H as a double negative straight off.

2♣-2♦-3♦-3N(4+H, single negative)-5♣(exclusion keycard)-5♦ (0/3)-5♠(QH?)-6♦(yes and something in ♦ you might like)-7♥

[Hanoi5]

2♣-2♦
3♥-5♥
7♥

Where 3♥ shows 4♥'s and 5♦'s or +. 5♥ of course is a bit too much, maybe 4♥-4NT and then 7♥ after finding partner holds the ♥Q.

Of course if West opens 3♣, especially after partner passes initially, you can just jump to 7♥.

[cherdanno]

2C 2D
3D 3N
4H 6H
??
4H should be forcing to 4N. Then South has a huge hand, I think a jump to 6H is about right. I think North is worth 7H over that, what can South have for the jump if he cannot make a cue?

[JLOGIC]

Hanoi5, on Aug 6 2010, 06:38 AM, said:

2♣-2♦
3♥-5♥
7♥

Where 3♥ shows 4♥'s and 5♦'s or +. 5♥ of course is a bit too much, maybe 4♥-4NT and then 7♥ after finding partner holds the ♥Q.

Of course if West opens 3♣, especially after partner passes initially, you can just jump to 7♥.

This was the auction I was thinking of also.

[bluecalm]

In our (meckwell based) precision it's simple:

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 2♥
4NT - 5♦
5♠ - 5NT
6♦ - 7♥


1♥ = 4+, F1
2♥ = 0-4pc, 4+!H
4NT = rkcb
5♦ = 0
5♠ = queen ?
5NT = yes, no side kings
6♦ = invite for second class values in ♦ (xx or Q)
7♥ = xx

It would also be easy to avoid grand slam oppoiste 4-3-3-3 with xxx of diamonds.

[JLOGIC]

And how do you show the spade king and the heart queen over 5S?

What are you doing if partner doesn't have the HQ? If you are just driving it to slam opposite 4 hearts and 0 points, do you see how that would often lead to getting to a terrible slam? If you are not driving it opposite no heart queen, do you realize how that might lead to missing a very good slam? Obv 5S drives you to slam opposite no heart queen, so that doesn't seem very convincing to me.

Obviously it's an easy hand with any methods if you're willing to just drive it to slam, but your auction doesn't seem too convincing to me. It seems like a good auction will have the weak hand cooperate at some point. Why not go slower with 3D over 2H? This allows partner to show that he likes his hand a lot on the actual hand. If partner gives it just 3H, you can keep going with 3S. If partner still won't cooperate, it's time to give up imo.

[bluecalm]

Obviously I am driving to slam opposite xxxx ♥.

Quote

do you see how that would often lead to getting to a terrible slam?

Yes but even if partner has ♥JTxx it's great slam and I assume those things are impossible to check for basically.

Quote

And how do you show the spade king and the heart queen over 5S?

We play that first step is queen and nothing extra and other bids are natural with queen (depending on sequence they show kings, voids or other stuff). Maybe in this auction queens should be showed as K +Q is impossible after 2♥.

[mohitz]

bluecalm, on Aug 6 2010, 05:35 PM, said:

6♦ = invite for second class values in ♦ (xx or Q)

It isn't such a great grand opposite xx of diamonds.

[JLOGIC]

bluecalm, on Aug 6 2010, 08:08 AM, said:

Obviously I am driving to slam opposite xxxx ♥.

Quote

do you see how that would often lead to getting to a terrible slam?

Yes but even if partner has ♥JTxx it's great slam and I assume those things are impossible to check for basically.

Quote

And how do you show the spade king and the heart queen over 5S?

We play that first step is queen and nothing extra and other bids are natural with queen (depending on sequence they show kings, voids or other stuff). Maybe in this auction queens should be showed as K +Q is impossible after 2♥.

How is JTxx a great slam? I think youre overestimating how well this hand will play with no entry to dummy and getting tapped on opening lead, and having a spade loser...

[JLOGIC]

For instance, how good do you think slam is opposite:

xxx Qxxx xx xxxx?

Say on a club lead:

If you ruff and play AK of diamonds and it gets ruffed, that's a pretty bad start.
If you ruff and play AK of diamonds and all follow and you play another diamond, and they follow:

-If you pitch a spade, the defense can just play another club and you are in big trouble.
-If you ruff, they can overruff and play a trump. You now need trumps to be 2-2 remaining to make.

So you're just down instantly on 4-1 trumps, and very likely to be down on 4-1 diamonds, and you're down a fair amount that they are both 3-2!

I think better is to play AK of trumps and then AK of diamonds and ruff a diamond? That leads to you only needing 2 3-2 breaks. My rough math is that 2 3-2 breaks is under 50 %, but you can also make on stiff Q of diamonds with this line, so lets call it a 50/50 slam. You can also make on 4-1 trumps onside and Qx of diamonds sometimes though I guess, so if you play it correctly you can get over 50 % probably.

Not really so great, and that's catching the queen of trumps and a doubleton diamond. In your auction partner is about 0-4 or 5, so that's a good buy.

If you buy nothing in hearts and nothing in diamonds you're in a lot of trouble (even oppoiste JTxx of trumps that you want), and you're also in trouble if partner has 3 small diamonds.

It just seems to me that up to 2H you're having a fine auction, and partner will be able to evaluate their hand further after 3D (they know red queens are good, fifth trumps are good, etc etc), and even further after a 3S bid (once theyve rejected wtih 3H, surely over 3S they will know how to evaluate their hand). Bidding 4N seems very bad, give partner a chance to bid their hand. With a range of 0-4 they can evaluate red queens/extra trump length/trump jack/3 small vs 2 small diamonds accurately.

All I know is I don't want to be in slam opposite neither queen and only 4 trumps.

[pooltuna]

InTime, on Aug 6 2010, 05:37 AM, said:

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ AKx ♥ AKxx ♦ AKJxxx ♣   ♠ xxx ♥ QTxx ♦ Qx ♣ Jxxx

How to bid these hands in SAYC, 2/1 or Precision?
Regards

assuming your LHO is dealer and opens 3 or 4♣ then after P P, you make the Piltch call of 7♥.


Now back to reality assuming no interference then you open 2♣ rebidding 3♦ and your problems start when partner now calls 3♥. The bidding can progress from this point in divergent ways but be sure you get to at least 6♥

[bluecalm]

Yeah, you are right JL. Thanks for that analysis.
I guess some more intelligent bidding is needed. Maybe 3♦ first and slow down if partner doesn't accept and roll out bw and stuff if he does ?

[mikeh]

Tough hand in 2/1.

If you play 2♥ immediate negative, then the question becomes whether this responding hand qualifies.

In most of my partnerships that is an automatic 'yes' since I prefer to play that 2♦ promises an Ace or a King. In another, it merely promises an Ace or a King or a smattering of points....3 Queens would definitely be a positive and this hand would be on the cusp.

This is critical.

After 2♣  2♥, we can't show 4♥s and longer diamonds conveniently...we have to bid 3♦.

Now responder cannot, as I generally play it, bid 3♥ on a 4 bagger...he must either temporize with 3N or raise diamonds. I think the fact that he is limited and that diamonds is his shortest suit argue for 3N.

That works ok, since opener bids 4♥ and I agree with cherdanno (albeit on a different start) that 4♥ should be forcing. If opener can visualize this auction and wants 4♥ to be passable, he should open 1♦.

Now responder has a great hand....wonderful trump and the invaluable diamond Queen...he is worth a jump to 6♥ and then opener must guess. I can't say what I would do since I know the hands now. Wouldn't this be a great spot for a gadget (which would never come up)....say an impossible leap to 5♠ over 4♥...can't be spades....can't be a stiff....must be the world's fair in support of hearts. Don't try this at home.

So for me to get to grand requires a lot of planets lining up in perfect synchronicity.

Start with a positive 2♦, and opener bids 3♥ if available and responder, who has already stretched or is anyway dead minimum can't really do anything other than raise. Opener is too strong to pass, but can hardly drive to slam....partner could hold xxx xxxx xx KQxx as one example.

So a spade cue bid...then what? I think responder, having nothing to cue bid but having all of his meagre assets in the right places, bids slam...and then opener is guessing....but I don't think he can safely bid grand.

Weird tho it may seem, I think I'd stand a better chance of grand after a negative response than after a positive.

[aguahombre]

Our methods are not good for this hand. After 2C, I could find out pard had the diamond and heart queens (and no ace or king), but not how many hearts she had. And we were already at 5NT when this occurred.

If we used 2H as an original bust, instead of 2D waiting, we could find out about the two red queens at 4H, but still not the number of hearts in responder's hand:

2C-2H* no ace, no king
3D-4H* Diamond honor because of the jump, and Ht queen (3D natural & 10+tricks).

Not confident enough to now use 5H as choice of slams. If so, then could get to 6D or 7H depending on whether resp has four hearts.

[kenrexford]

FWIW, using "New Frontiers" methods:

Opener starts with 2♣, usually denying as many as four spades.

Responder bids 2♦, GF and waiting.

Opener bids an artificial 2♠, showing a minor-heart canape. He plans on bidding 3♠ if Responder bids 2NT to ask, showing three spades, four hearts, and 5+ diamonds. This will be perfect.

Instead, Responder immediately agrees hearts in whatever method is elected. Perhaps he bids the general purpose 3♣, which allows Opener to bid 3♦ to show the diamond-heart canape, and cuebidding follows.

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FWIW, using "Rexfordized Kokish":

2♣-P-2♦ start (standard stuff).

Opener rebids 2♥, a specialized "Kokish." Responder bids 2♠ because he does not have any special hand. Opener rebids 2NT, showing a 4-card major with a longer minor. Responder bids 3♣ to clarify, and Opener bids 3♦ to show long diamonds. Responder bids 3♥ to suggest hearts, and Opener bids 4♣ as a cue, confirming hearts. Responder cues the diamond Queen, and Opener bids 4NT (the club Ace is a good card). Responder bids 5♣, and Opener asks for the heart Queen (5♦). Responder has this but no King, so he bids 6♥. Opener decides that the spade Queen, or a finesse, or a squeeze, or a 3-2 heart split, or this or that makes the grand and blasts it out anyway, or is conservative and passes.

[mike777]

mikeh, on Aug 6 2010, 11:02 AM, said:

Tough hand in 2/1.

If you play 2♥ immediate negative, then the question becomes whether this responding hand qualifies.

In most of my partnerships that is an automatic 'yes' since I prefer to play that 2♦ promises an Ace or a King. In another, it merely promises an Ace or a King or a smattering of points....3 Queens would definitely be a positive and this hand would be on the cusp.

This is critical.

After 2♣  2♥, we can't show 4♥s and longer diamonds conveniently...we have to bid 3♦.

Now responder cannot, as I generally play it, bid 3♥ on a 4 bagger...he must either temporize with 3N or raise diamonds. I think the fact that he is limited and that diamonds is his shortest suit argue for 3N.

That works ok, since opener bids 4♥ and I agree with cherdanno (albeit on a different start) that 4♥ should be forcing. If opener can visualize this auction and wants 4♥ to be passable, he should open 1♦.

Now responder has a great hand....wonderful trump and the invaluable diamond Queen...he is worth a jump to 6♥ and then opener must guess. I can't say what I would do since I know the hands now. Wouldn't this be a great spot for a gadget (which would never come up)....say an impossible leap to 5♠ over 4♥...can't be spades....can't be a stiff....must be the world's fair in support of hearts. Don't try this at home.

So for me to get to grand requires a lot of planets lining up in perfect synchronicity.

Start with a positive 2♦, and opener bids 3♥ if available and responder, who has already stretched or is anyway dead minimum can't really do anything other than raise. Opener is too strong to pass, but can hardly drive to slam....partner could hold xxx xxxx xx KQxx as one example.

So a spade cue bid...then what? I think responder, having nothing to cue bid but having all of his meagre assets in the right places, bids slam...and then opener is guessing....but I don't think he can safely bid grand.

Weird tho it may seem, I think I'd stand a better chance of grand after a negative response than after a positive.

ditto


after 2c=2h start (deny a or k, unlimited tiny points) this becomes a very tough hand to just get to 6h..I think getting to 6d would be easy.


Note responder needs to rebid 3nt not 4d and then opener needs to rebid a forcing and natural 4h.....tough really expert level bids.

2c=2h
3d=3nt?
4h?=6h
??

[ONEferBRID]

bluecalm, on Aug 6 2010, 07:05 AM, said:

In our (meckwell based) precision it's simple:

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 2♥
4NT - 5♦
5♠ - 5NT
6♦ - 7♥


1♥ = 4+, F1
2♥ = 0-4pc, 4+!H
4NT = rkcb
5♦ = 0
5♠ = queen ?
5NT = yes, no side kings
6♦ = invite for second class values in ♦ (xx or Q)
7♥ = xx

It would also be easy to avoid grand slam oppoiste 4-3-3-3 with xxx of diamonds.

Here's another Meckwell tip.
When Hts are agreed as trump, then 4S! is kickback RKC ( and 4NT! is exclusion w/ Sp void ).
That way you can always make a hQ-ask BELOW 5H.

Also, eventho you are correct on the 7H reply to the 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask ( 6D!) in Diam ( showing a doubleton Diam ) , you may want to reply 6NT -- showing the dQ in case it is MP scoring and partner may have the ability to bid 7NT ( with a different hand of course ).

[mike777]

Seems a tad lucky to bid this deal with the oPPonents silent.