[vuroth]

Scoring: MP

Opps silent

1♣ 1♠
1NT 2♦
2♥ ?

---

How should the bidding have gone from here?

More generally, how do you make a forcing minor suit bid in this case, or show interest in slam in a minor?

[TylerE]

I think going for slam on this is nuts. The partnership has 28-30 combined highs, possibly only 7 clubs, and no clear source of side tricks. I bid 3N and don't think it's close. It partner had owned up to a spade fit I would definalty be taking a more optomistic view of things. Basically, 1N and 2♥ are the LEAST encouraging bids partner could have made.

[bid_em_up]

TylerE, on Jul 23 2010, 02:09 PM, said:

I think going for slam on this is nuts. The partnership has 28-30 combined highs, possibly only 7 clubs, and no clear source of side tricks. I bid 3N and don't think it's close. It partner had owned up to a spade fit I would definalty be taking a more optomistic view of things. Basically, 1N and 2♥ are the LEAST encouraging bids partner could have made.

ahem. Tyler's being lazy.

Assuming you are playing NMF as GF, just bid 3♣.

[jjbrr]

3♣ obv

[TylerE]

Lazy why? Once I've decided to settle in 3N I don't see any reason to tell the opponents anything extra about my hand.

[bid_em_up]

TylerE, on Jul 23 2010, 02:54 PM, said:

Lazy why? Once I've decided to settle in 3N I don't see any reason to tell the opponents anything extra about my hand.

Because deciding to settle in 3N is the lazy way out. That's why. See your pm's.

(I'll give you a hint, it's impossible for opener to only have three clubs, or if he does, he also has three spades and chose to rebid 2H first). Instead of finding out, you just shut out the auction.

[ONEferBRID]

3C now ( after 2H ) establishes the GF ( 2D! as NMF , is not GF per se ).

If Responder wanted to just invite, the auction would have been:

1C - 1S
1NT - 3C jump

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The rules-of-thumb are:

-- Responder starts all game forcing auctions with NMF.

-- The jumps are either invitational or weak ( whichever your partnership decides ).

[hanp]

Even if you don't play 2D as GF, I think it is good to play 3C now as forcing. As you said, you need to be able to raise clubs in a forcing way and you need to be able to do it below 3NT. Having said that, I do think that life becomes much easier if you play 2-way checkback, where 2D is invitational and 2C forces 2D (either to play 2D or to show an invitational hand). the only thing that's easy about NMF is it's name.

I don't agree with Bid_em_Up that partner must have 4 clubs, but this is a matter of style. With 3 spades and 4 hearts I would always rebid 2H as opener, because 2H is lower than 2S.

[bid_em_up]

hanp, on Jul 23 2010, 03:50 PM, said:

I don't agree with Bid_em_Up that partner must have 4 clubs, but this is a matter of style. With 3 spades and 4 hearts I would always rebid 2H as opener, because 2H is lower than 2S.

bid_em_up, on Jul 23 2010, 02:57 PM, said:

it's impossible for opener to only have three clubs, or if he does, he also has three spades and chose to rebid 2H first

isn't that what I said?

Maybe you meant that you would always bid 2H (instead of 'chose to rebid 2H over 2S", as I phrased it). That's fine (so would I). The main point was in either case you will have an 8+ fit in one of the black suits.

[mikeh]

When considering whether to explore for slam, it is useful to imagine a few hands for partner, thinking optimistically, and see if it is going to be a good contract. If you can't come up with any, then give up right now.

If you can come up with some, then consider some bad hands and imagine how the auction would go...if the auction will likely take you past the last good spot, consider not exploring....you will often see analysts comment, on high-level slam exploration, that you have or do not have '5-level safety'...by which they mean that while slam may be on, if you have to commit to the 5-level in order to find out, it is important that you do not create a significant risk of getting too high when game is the limit.

Here, you should forsee little difficulty stopping at a safe level, because the auction is low and opener is relatively well defined.

I think it is standard that when responder uses nmf (even old fashioned nmf as here) 3♣ is forcing.

Consider some hands: Kx AQxx Kxx Qxxx: is this consistent with the auction? heck, yes...and slam is reasonable, tho far from cold...partner should be enthused with this hand....maximal hcp, 4 controls and so on.

Qx AJxx KQx Qxxx...again, a decent slam.

And I don't think that partner will drive beyond 3N, over our 3♣, without a good hand in context. Indeed, he might not with this hand, since he has only 4 soft hcp in our two suits. But how can it hurt to give him a chance?

One issue is what would partner's 3♠ mean over 3♣? Since he hasn't denied 3 spades yet, I think it should be natural...btw, when I played old style nmf, I played 2♠ here as a one round force, partly so this issue would never arise.

[ONEferBRID]

Some NMF auctions where Responder first bids Spades:

1m - 1S
1NT - 2om!
??
2H = minimum, 4h but may have 3s
3H! jump = maximum, 4h AND 3s ( not standard )
2S = minimum, 3s and NO 4h

After:
2H - 3NT = 5s, but NO 4h ( Responder can correct to 4S w/3cards )
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I hesitate to use 3Sjump = maximum w/3cards in case Responder wants to make
the GF distinction in another suit on the 3-level.... for example:
1m - 1M
1NT - 2om!
2M - 3m = GF and more than likely is an inverted minor type hand with a 4 card Major.

[vuroth]

mikeh, on Jul 23 2010, 03:46 PM, said:

Consider some hands: Kx AQxx Kxx Qxxx: is this consistent with the auction? heck, yes...and slam is reasonable, tho far from cold...partner should be enthused with this hand....maximal hcp, 4 controls and so on.

Qx AJxx KQx Qxxx...again, a decent slam.

Not bad. Partner was

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Thanks

[aguahombre]

With different agreements for opener's response to NMF, Responder can find out immediately whether opener has a min or a max. 3C after NMF is still forcing of course, but if Opener has a weak one responder can avoid the torture and play it in the NT game.

It just requires different priorities: first=3 card spade support, second is strength.

So, with only 2 spades and a max (like he had) the rebid is 2NT, not 2H. Now we have established at least game is going to be bid; and with that issue out of the way, things can proceed at a liesurely pace. If a heart fit is there (on a different hand) responder can bid 3H next to find it.

If, instead opener had bid 2H/2D, it would show only 2 Spades AND a weak opener ---might have 4 hearts, might not. Obviously there is more to this approach, but that would cover this situation.

Responder knows about the 30 to 31 HCP combined assets before he even bids 3C.

[mcphee]

When I hold a hand like this and partner opens 1C it is almost impossible to not reach a C slam opposite 4+C. Although it would be nice to have 2D here GF it isn't using NMF. After opening hand bids 2H responder must continue with 3C which must be used as F.

As this is pairs I would try a NT slam if partner I find partner holds 3S. When we discover they hold 2S I would play C slam. If dear partner open 1C with a random pail I trust their declarer skills will be good enough to bring in 12 tricks.