[Stephen Tu]

Scoring: MP

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(p)-p-(3♦)-3♥;
all pass

[whereagles]

Seems totally normal. North could have overbid and shoot at 4, South could have overbid and raise to 4... Both bids could have worked out from really good (this case) to really bad (as in, -800).

Sometimes preempts work.

[Codo]

As my 3 ♥ bids in this situations are stronger then the ones from typical BBF posters, it is more south fault not to raise. So I had decided different then he did. But I won't blame anyone.

[jdonn]

South, advancer. But it wasn't terrible. North could have started with double then bid 4♥ if his ace was not in diamonds and it would have been reasonable.

[JLOGIC]

Well it definitely wasn't norths fault!

Souths pass could have worked so I don't think it's terrible but I would never do it myself.

[quiddity]

Interesting, I would have assigned blame to North. Isn't he supposed to place partner with a balanced 7-count? Given the vulnerable diamond preempt it seems like most balanced 7-counts will give some play for game.

[pooltuna]

JLOGIC, on Jul 14 2010, 10:43 AM, said:

Well it definitely wasn't norths fault!

Souths pass could have worked so I don't think it's terrible but I would never do it myself.

so how does South have his cake and eat it too when he holds

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?

[gwnn]

what is your point?

[P_Marlowe]

If there is blame at all, it goes to North, South has an easy Pass.
As North, I would have bid 4H, but playing MP 3H is ok, even playing IMPs.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jdonn]

If I may be simplistic, north has 6 losers! A random balanced 7 count will probably not cover 3 of those losers! Overcalling 4♥ is so bad, the suit isn't even that great.

[Bbradley62]

pooltuna, on Jul 14 2010, 12:15 PM, said:

JLOGIC, on Jul 14 2010, 10:43 AM, said:

Well it definitely wasn't norths fault!

Souths pass could have worked so I don't think it's terrible but I would never do it myself.

so how does South have his cake and eat it too when he holds

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?

That South doesn't open 2♠?

[nigel_k]

Unlucky.

I wouldn't bid game with South at matchpoints though it is close. North's bidding is fine, he needs more to jump to 4♥ over 3♦.

[Fluffy]

I blame the overcall style just like Roland.

[Siegmund]

There's an awful lot of blame being given out in this thread for quite a normal auction. Not getting to game after a preempt with 22 points is not quite the end of the world. Seriously, supposing the opps are silent do you think you're always getting to 4H here? You want North to force to game with 6 losers, or South to raise with 2 covers?

I would be quite unhappy with a North who leapt to 4H over 3D, and quite unhappy with a South who raised 3H to 4, though that's semi-understandable if he is confident both his kings are well placed. No reason for him to think his 4th trump is worth much since he won't be doing any ruffing.

[mikeh]

There is no blame to assign. There is responsibility to assign, and that is clearly South's.

Those who advocate an immediate 4♥ don't (it seems) have a clue as to what 4♥ would (in NA at least) usually show. Neither the hand nor the suit are good enough.....maybe not out by much, but the combination of being weak on both fronts makes it not even close. And the idea of doubling makes me ill...this is a 3♥ overcall and the fact that it is heavy doesn't make it wrong.

I think S has a close decision. I know that the odds are that I would allow the conditions of contest to talk me into passing....I'd raise at imps. I wouldn't blame anyone for passing at mps, nor even white at imps...but red at imps, blame would attach.

[jdonn]

Siegmund, on Jul 14 2010, 05:28 PM, said:

Seriously, supposing the opps are silent do you think you're always getting to 4H here?

I would be pretty embarassed to miss game in an uncontested auction!

[JLOGIC]

Siegmund, on Jul 14 2010, 05:28 PM, said:

You want North to force to game with 6 losers, or South to raise with 2 covers?

No reason for him to think his 4th trump is worth much since he won't be doing any ruffing.

I don't know anything about covers but I thought a 4th trump was supposed to be counted as one?

You assign no value to the 4th trump because we won't be ruffing but it has value opposite basically any heart holding with partner. It eliminates a loser. If partner has AQxxx, AQxxxx, AKxxx, AKxxxx, KQxxx, KQxxxx, AJxxx, AJxxxx, Kxxxxx etc the 4th trump always has value in reducing our losers. Even opposite AKQxx 4 small is way better than 3 small.

Not to mention that there's no reason our doubleton diamond can't be a ruffing value sometimes, all they did was open 3D. You are acting like our hand is equal in value to K9x xxx xxx Kxxx which I think is very far off.

[eyhung]

Siegmund, on Jul 14 2010, 03:28 PM, said:

There's an awful lot of blame being given out in this thread for quite a normal auction. Not getting to game after a preempt with 22 points is not quite the end of the world.

Not getting to game with 22 of the 34 relevant HCP and a 10-card trump fit is the end of the world in a good event. This hand shows the importance of not thinking in terms of points when hands are unbalanced. You need to think about playing tricks, fit, and honor location.

To borrow a phrase, talking about high-card points in an auction where there is a big fit and shape is like dancing about architecture. Kxxx xxx Kxxx xx is not even close to the same hand as Kxx xxxx xx Kxxx, but point-counters will say both are 6 HCP, 7 support point hands.

FWIW, my partner and I had to deal with a 1D opener and a 1-over-1 responder. Despite the unfavorable opponents showing around half the deck in "points", we bid :

       P   P
1D 1H 1S 3D* = mixed
P  4H AP

making 5.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

FWIW, my partner and I had to deal with a 1D opener and a 1-over-1 responder

I'd argue that this is a much easier position to be in.

[eyhung]

I'm not trying to determine whether it's easier or harder to bid the game at my table or yours. (Although, some Souths might not have made a mixed raise because "I had too few points".) Saying it's okay to miss a cold game because "you don't have enough points" is like saying it's okay not to bid game because "you don't have enough heffalumps'. Last I checked, we were being scored upon how many tricks we take, not about how many heffalumps or ZARs or whatzits we had. At some point, people have to stop thinking about "points" and start thinking about tricks. The South hand can take tricks with hearts as trump. So what if it's not so good for 3NT?