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QBID question

#1 User is offline   vgarla 

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Posted 2010-July-10, 13:49

Opponents bid 2 suits, my partner pases and I qbid one of their suits. Is it natural or somethingelse? We are playing SAYC.
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#2 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2010-July-10, 14:05

Michaels when Opps have bid 2 suits :

( 1C ) - p - ( 1D ) - ??

2C! = Michaels ( LHO suit ... or the suit BEHIND you )
2D = natural ( RHO suit... or the suit in FRONT of you )
Don Stenmark ( TWOferBRIDGE )
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#3 User is offline   dburn 

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Posted 2010-July-10, 14:32

ONEferBRID, on Jul 10 2010, 03:05 PM, said:

Michaels when Opps have bid 2 suits :

( 1C ) - p - ( 1D ) - ??

2C! = Michaels ( LHO suit ... or the suit BEHIND you )
2D = natural ( RHO suit... or the suit in FRONT of you )

Always struck me as a bit illogical, that. After all, LHO might not have clubs, whereas RHO certainly has diamonds (indeed, playing the Walsh style that has become increasingly popular, the chances are that he has quite a lot of diamonds).

Myself, I prefer to play that if an opponent bids a suit he might not have, then I have it when I bid it. If on the other hand an opponent bids a suit he certainly has, then I don't have it when I bid it.
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#4 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2010-July-10, 16:16

Without discussion, I would assume a bid of either suit is natural.

With discussion, I might feel otherwise about a major bid on my left. I would be unhappy to be forced into any agreement that always made one of the two actions Michaels. With double, 1NT, and 2NT already available I don't feel much need for a fourth artificial bid.
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#5 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2010-July-10, 16:38

dburn, on Jul 10 2010, 03:32 PM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Jul 10 2010, 03:05 PM, said:

Michaels when Opps have bid 2 suits :

( 1C ) - p - ( 1D ) - ??

2C! = Michaels ( LHO suit ... or the suit BEHIND you )
2D  = natural ( RHO suit... or the suit in FRONT of you )

Always struck me as a bit illogical, that. After all, LHO might not have clubs, whereas RHO certainly has diamonds (indeed, playing the Walsh style that has become increasingly popular, the chances are that he has quite a lot of diamonds).

Myself, I prefer to play that if an opponent bids a suit he might not have, then I have it when I bid it. If on the other hand an opponent bids a suit he certainly has, then I don't have it when I bid it.

what I thought but with more detail :)
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#6 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2010-July-10, 17:28

Well, try these on for size:

1)    ( 1C ) - p - ( 1S ) - 2C! = Michaels ... too weak to DBL.
Others may claim that it is a natural Cl suit but look at the next one:

2)    ( 1C ) - p - ( 1S ) - 2S = natural ... you want to have the Major to bid naturally.

Looking at both sequences and you want to have only one cue bid as Michaels and the other as natural, ask yourself this question:
"Do you want to play in a "natural suit" where there is purported length in front of you ( RHO) or behind you ( LHO ) ? "
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#7 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2010-July-10, 17:39

ONEferBRID, on Jul 10 2010, 07:28 PM, said:

...ask yourself this question:
"Do you  want to play in a "natural suit" where there is purported length in front of you ( RHO)  or behind you ( LHO ) ? "

complete silliness...

I want my natural bid to maybe play against a bad split (like every time I bid a suit), not to definitely play against one.
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#8 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2010-July-10, 17:57

Another option is to play BOTH as Michaels and assign something like:
lower cue bid = better lower suit of the 2 unbid...

( 1C ) - p - ( 1D ) - ??

2C! = better Hts
2D! = better Sp
Don Stenmark ( TWOferBRIDGE )
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#9 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2010-July-10, 20:32

What you havent told us yet, Onefer, is why you leap to the conclusion that either one of these should be Michaels...
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#10 User is offline   Elianna 

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Posted 2010-July-10, 20:55

If you play both x and NT are takeout (playing sandwich NT), then there is no real reason to also have the Q-bid as takeout.

Adam and I play it as natural for this reason.
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#11 User is offline   Lobowolf 

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Posted 2010-July-10, 21:38

If you're playing SAYC, either bid is natural.
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#12 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2010-July-11, 03:12

After (1) pass (1), there are several good reasons for playing 2 as natural:
- Nobody likes being dealt a nice six-card major and not being able to bid it.
- It bypasses both red suits, so it's less useful for showing a two-suiter than 2 or 1NT would have been. This is quite a dangerous auction, and it's rare that you'll have a good enough hand to commit to the three level.
- RHO's average spade length isn't much more than four.

None of that applies after (1) pass (1), so there's a good case for playing differently in the two auctions. Personally, I play responder's suit as natural in all such sequences, but that's mainly to avoid having to remember the exceptions.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#13 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2010-July-11, 04:29

I play after 1C p 1D that 2D is michaels, and 2C is natural. It seems imperative to have a michaels there.

I have recently been transformed to liking 1m p 1M 2m=michaels. 2M is def natural. I don't mind playing 2m natural here and having no michaels either.

Always 1N nat for me.
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#14 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2010-July-11, 06:38

Siegmund, on Jul 10 2010, 09:32 PM, said:

What you havent told us yet, Onefer, is why you leap to the conclusion that either one of these should be Michaels...

I was just quoting a National Champion... and at least 3 other experts.

Also, since 4th seat is an Unpassed hand in my examples, 1NT is natural.

There are arguments that 2NT in 4th seat is natural also, but partner won't have many, if any points if you believe the opps' bidding.
[ With only ONE opp bidding, 2NT in 4th seat is definitely natural ].
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#15 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2010-July-11, 09:00

If you play SAYC, it is natural, Explicitly so described in the SAYC writeup.

I like it natural when there are at least two other ways (maybe three) to show the unbid suits.
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#16 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-July-11, 09:41

Agree that (1m) - p - (1M) - 2M needs to be natural.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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