[twcho]

[FONT=Courier]

Scoring: MP


W N E S
          1♦
P 1♠ P 2♣
P 2♦ X P
2♥ 2♠ P 3♦
P P X P
?

---

You are sitting west and all are capable players. The auction went as shown. Your turn now. What should you bid?

(Don't know how to edit the auction panel. )

[luis]

Pass, is this a joke?

[Free]

Lol, Luis always straight to the point. Indeed, PASS! What else??

[inquiry]

Pass. What is the problem. Partner has good hand, with spades and a few diamonds. Oppoinents probably belong in 3♣ sound like north took fake preference to ♦ with five weak spades.

Ben

[paulhar]

Let's make it 4-0. Might turn out to be the first time I've ever agreed with all three of these fine players!

[twcho]

Scoring: MP

---

So everyone has the same answer but the full hand is as above. EW has 3H and NS has 3D (big violation of LOTT, ). So who should be at fault, E or W? Seems that the answer is obvious that E is responsible for all faults but please explain which alternative action he can take?

Should E bid 3H himself? Or should W venture 3H after RHO bid 3D? Please remember, this is MP, even if NS went down 1 may not be a good result for EW if they can make 3H. Or EW should accept the fact that they are done because of the vulnerabiltiy and keep silent after 3D.

[Cascade]

twcho, on Aug 3 2004, 04:42 PM, said:

So everyone has the same answer but the full hand is as above. EW has 3H and NS has 3D (big violation of LOTT, ).

This isn't a big violation. One trick at most. NS have a pseudo-double fit diamonds and clubs and EW sort of have a double fit in spades and hearts.

The second fit is not an 8-card fit but it is a source of tricks in both cases.

[mikestar]

I think the bidding is reasonable. LOTT say 16 tricks and there are 18 and I don't think either East or West can visualize this discrepancy especially West with his 4333.

Looking at all four hands it is obvious that there will be more tricks than trumps--the deal has no minor honor problems at all--it is totally pure as Larry C. says it, but this is not readily apparent looking at your own cards and hearing the bidding.

Interchange the two red Queens and the hand becomes very different--the Queen of hearts will take a trick on defense but will be useless on offense. Similarly, perfect defense can limit E-W to one diamond trick (defense leads clubs rather than diamonds) but there should be two diamond tricks on defense against N-S diamond contract.

[1eyedjack]

mikestar, on Aug 3 2004, 12:45 AM, said:

there should be two diamond tricks on defense against N-S diamond contract.

How do you get to that?

[twcho]

Quote

Interchange the two red Queens and the hand becomes very different--the Queen of hearts will take a trick on defense but will be useless on offense. Similarly, perfect defense can limit E-W to one diamond trick (defense leads clubs rather than diamonds) but there should be two diamond tricks on defense against N-S diamond contract. 

So does this mean that if W has 109x Kxxx KQx xxx, he shd pass while with his current hand, he shd try 3H? (and this strategy fits with the hand well)

[EricK]

This hand is a bit of a freak in terms of number of tricks that can be made, so it is possibly not right to ask who is to blame. However ...

Maybe my thinking is a bit off here, but I don't like East's pre-balancing double of 2♦. Why make a take out double when there is only 1 unbid suit, and no guarantee that partner has anything in it? Why stick your neck out, vulnerable, when opener could still be sitting with a powerful hand?

eg swap ♥K and ♣6, and the bidding will start exactly the same way. What is West suppose to do when 2♦ doubled is passed round to him? 2♥ will be 2 off!

Eric

[twcho]

Yes, the pre-balance double is risky but considerably less in MP. You won't get a good result in MP if you let opp play in their suits NV when you can have 2M to play.

For the hand concerned, I don't think west can take any action if 2 pass comes to him after the 2D by north.

[Free]

I think East needs to learn how to bid. First turn he passes, second turn he Doubles just to find 2♥, they go to 3♦ and this should be end of story...

- Why doesn't he Double in the first round? Afraid of the vulnerability?
- Why does he Double in the second round? He's only looking for 2♥ contract imo, so just bid 2♥ (and the strong hand can play)
- After bidding 2♥ instead of Dbl, you'll find out that south doesn't have a 3-card (passes or bids 3m), and perhaps that north has a 5 card ♠ (if south passed) which gives you the extra info that south won't have even a 2 card since he won't let 2♠ play. In this bidding sequence, you also know this stuff about the ♠s anyway, so what about the rest? Bidding suggests:
North: 5-x-3-x
South: 1-x-5-4
West: 3-4-x-x
This is a simple riddle: there are only 3 ♦s left, so West has a 3-4-3-3. This means opps have either 5-2-3-3 & 1-3-5-4 or 5-3-3-2 & 1-2-5-5, or some other freak hands. So why would you want to Double 3♦ anyway? Your ♠KQ are worthless, and you know opps can even play dummy reversal with some luck, since trumps are 3-2 divided!

[luke warm]

speaking of the law, anybody read the article in this month's bulletin? seems there's a book coming out, mike lawrence co-author, saying that not only is the law wrong, but telling what's right

least that's the rumor

[inquiry]

Mistake was East's first pass. This is a clear double on round one. Support for hearts, tolerable support for clubs, good values.

Ben

[1eyedjack]

We might not like the way East has treated the hand earlier in the auction, mainly because of the risk that the auction might have developed along a different path. But given that he has passed first time around, he has luckily had an opportunity to show pretty much the same hand type.

So I think that criticising East's bids prior to his final double is a bit of a red herring. By the time they have got to 3D you have pretty much the same decision to make with pretty much the same available information.

[inquiry]

1eyedjack, on Aug 3 2004, 08:41 AM, said:

So I think that criticising East's bids prior to his final double is a bit of a red herring.  By the time they have got to 3D you have pretty much the same decision to make with pretty much the same available information.

I think this isn't true. PArtner clearly has hearts and spades, and should be short in clubs. I even mentioned this in my earlier post, when I hinted that they are in the wrong strain. I suggested that North probably took fake preference back to 2♦ over 2♣.

The reason I said that is, partner can't have this hand.. with 4 hearts and a club tolerance. The reason is he has a good hand and took no action over 1♠. For partner to have more clubs than diamonds for tihs second double is the joke Luis was referring too. Partner has backed himself into a corner and now over 3♦ doulbe we have to guess what to do?

Look how much easier the auction is with an intial double..

(1D)- P - (1S) - DBL
(2C)- 2H - ( P) - Pass
(3C) - P - ( P) - 3H
Pass

It gets easier because now 2H is bid "volunteer", it gets easier because both you and your partner now what is going on. On the first auction in this thread, over 2D=X you partner is pre-balancing, bidding some of your 8 hcp, on the auction in this post, your partners 1S double shows significant values in his hand, and in fact if South passes, I would be tempted to jump to 3H, but over 2C, 2H is enough. On the first auction, partners second double is clearly at least optional penalty showing diamond values.. the reason he passed at first was he had spades and diamonds and short in clubs (in theory at least).

No there is not the same information avalialble. Your partner has totally misdescribed his hand. Even looking at the hand, I can't imagine why he doubled the second time other than to try to protect his +110 for 2H, but at most he can hope for 1 trick set if you have diamonds, and that will not compensate for his +110. Bidding 3H now, however, is too risky at this vul, for down one dbled is the kss of death at MP, and your hand could be a whole lot weaker than it actually is. That is, your 2H on the auction he choose was forced on you. as opposed to bid freely on the on in this thread.

No, clearly the problem on this hand was EAST first pass, not to mention his second double didn't help either.
Ben

[1eyedjack]

I think a more usual standard meaning of an immediate double by East would be to show at least 4-4 in the blacks. Swap East's black suits and I would agree that double is (using standard methods) automatic. I don't see it as automatic with 4-3, and I don't understand why it is more important that the double promises 4 Hearts and Club tolerance contrasted with 4 Clubs and Heart tolerance. Whether you gain or lose out in what promises to be a partscore battle is going to depend on your locating your fit and competing to the relevant level. I need some convincing that concentrating on finding major suit fit while effectively giving up on minors furthers that end.

Personally I follow Amesbury/Payne's doctrine in "TNT and competetive bidding" (given an accommodating partner and opportunity to discuss it):
Once LHO has opened and RHO has freely responded, except for a few rare exceptions you can give up on bidding game your way, and the use of a particular defensive bid to promise values is a waste of a bid. They prefer (particularly where 1m may be prepared):

(1m)-P-(1 suit)-X = 3-suited t/o of LHO's suit
(1m)-P-(1 suit)-1N = 3-suited t/o of RHO's suit
(1m)-P-(1 suit)-cue = 2-suited t/o (4-4 or better, more shape with more expensive cue, including 2N)

These are all destructive bids, although if you do have extra values and get the opportunity (which is likely) then you can at that stage take further action to clarify strength.

So I might double 1S to show a 3-suited t/o of diamonds on this hand, but it is still a little lie with only 3 Clubs. And without playing that method, as I say, the more standard meaning of double in my neck of the woods is 4-4 or better in the unbids.

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Aug 3 2004, 11:18 AM, said:

Mistake was East's first pass. This is a clear double on round one. Support for hearts, tolerable support for clubs, good values.

Ben

Ben, I think first pass is right. He cant dbl with 3club and 4heart. It is ok only if dbl promises 4heart only. I think dbl with this hand is losing bridge in long run. With this hand, after 3D, he shld pass or bid 3H. Pushing up one level is a big achievement. This is MP, -110 is much better than -590. The second dbl has to be penality as u said, so I think the sin is the 2nd dbl.

Hongjun

[inquiry]

Well, if you wait fo the perfect hand to double, you will be stolen blind. Do you every double 1H without 4 spades? Do you ever double 1D without 4-4 in hte majors? The answer is of cousrse you do. The same applies here, if you pass with this hand, you will have trouble competitng later. You can move one heart to clubs and give me 4-3-2-4 or 4-4-2-3 with good values, and I double (or bid 1NT, sandwich NT is takeout).

Ben