[FrancesHinden]

I agree with all of gnasher's points (it had to happen eventually).
I play 4C as an ace-ask in response to a pre-empt - I'm only telling you that as further evidence that I rarely feel the need to bid a minor naturally.

But I have not felt the lack of an artificial diamond bid either.

I do play 5m in response to 4M as a cue bid, but a 3S opening is slightly less committal to the major than a 4S opening.

[campboy]

Ah yes, I hadn't considered that 4♣ might be artificial even though 4♦ isn't. If you play 4♣ as RKC then you can bid 4♣ followed by 5♦ as a control-ask in diamonds; in that case I agree that 3♠ - 5♦ should be natural.

[Pict]

Interesting conversation, but I still feel short-changed by the strong players.

I've opened 3S and pard bids 4D (Natural and forcing).

What do I do now and why?

[aguahombre]

Pict, on Jun 26 2010, 01:55 PM, said:

Interesting conversation, but I still feel short-changed by the strong players.

I've opened 3S and pard bids 4D (Natural and forcing).

What do I do now and why?

Suggest first look at the hand you opened 3S with, then refer to Gnasher's suggested follow-ups --which seem as good as any for the high level of the auction.

Or, maybe you were implying that Gnasher was other than a strong player

[Pict]

aguahombre, on Jun 26 2010, 03:15 PM, said:

Pict, on Jun 26 2010, 01:55 PM, said:

Interesting conversation, but I still feel short-changed by the strong players.

I've opened 3S and pard bids 4D (Natural and forcing).

What do I do now and why?

Suggest first look at the hand you opened 3S with, then refer to Gnasher's suggested follow-ups --which seem as good as any for the high level of the auction.

Or, maybe you were implying that Gnasher was other than a strong player

Aqua - I failed to find the relevant Gnasher post (why would it matter if it were a Gnasher post? This is a rare situation: do you have an agreement?.. does Gnasher?)

I could understand (eg):

4H control

4S nothing

5C control

5D A/K non-single

But then I wouldn't say 4D was natural - would you?

But then how do I know as opener whether I am answering a hand that can play spades or only diamonds?

[aguahombre]

gnasher, on Jun 25 2010, 05:29 PM, said:

Pict, on Jun 25 2010, 11:49 PM, said:

Does 'Forcing natural' mean you have no agreements about openers rebid? 

I don't have any specific agreements with anyone about what opener's rebids mean, but I don't need to, because the default meanings are both obvious and adequate for such a rare sequence. 4♠ and 5♦ would be to play, and any new suit would be agreeing diamonds and showing a control, usually shortage.

Quote

Or what is your expectation and why not mention it instead of pointlessly attacking Campboy.

I expect Campboy can look after himself, but I doubt if he feels "attacked" because he expressed an opinion, a few people disagreed with his opinion, he asked a followup question, and he received replies that were intended as both informative and civil.

this is the one to which I was referring. It is general, but the level is high.

People usually have better, more specific agreements after 3-level (or lower) forcing (somewhat natural) responses to preempts --such as rebidding your suit shows one or zero of the new suit, NT=doubleton, side control with 3, etc. the new suit can even be used to specifically find out that information (might not actually be a real suit, but responder is in charge.)

[Pict]

Thanks Aqua

We finally moved from the 'natural and forcing' to:

'I am strong with diamonds and I want you to do the following'...

If that is really your (or anyone's/everyones's) definition of 'natural and forcing' that's completely OK with me, once you tell me... and tell me the meaning of the 'following' bids.

[campboy]

I really do not understand the problem. If you play it as natural and forcing then it means "I have diamonds and a good hand, please do something sensible".

If opener now rebids spades, that clearly means "I want to play in spades" and if he raises diamonds that means "ok, let's play in diamonds". A new suit can't be natural because he pre-empted, so obviously it must be a slam-try, presumably agreeing diamonds, and showing a control if that is what slam-tries normally mean for you. 4NT is obviously Turbo .

[aguahombre]

No problem. That is what PCT wanted to know. Asked and answered. But, it did give me a chance to zing Gnasher.