[kgr]

You are in 6♠ and this is the trump suit. You don't have any losers outside trumps. How do you play this for one loser:

---

Remark: This is easy and destined for beginner/interm

[vuroth]

I would have said

Spoiler

A then low to T, but afaik bridgehands gives a different line from AKT9x vs xxx, and I don't understand why.

[hanp]

Maybe you should follow up to one of your blog goals: think deeper.

Are there any layouts where playing the ace first wins?

Are there any layouts where finessing first wins?

(remember: losing one trick doesn't matter here)

[Cyberyeti]

I cash the ace. Then play small to the 8. I think this is technically superior, but even if it isn't it's embarrassing to lose to a singleton honour by finessing first time then finding he can lead something for his partner to ruff.

Losing one trick when you don't need to costs you an IMP, and having recently won and lost 32 board matches or longer by a single IMP, this is significant.

[gwnn]

If you want to optimise your avg number of tricks, low to the T is vastly superior to cash the Ace then low from hand.

[Cyberyeti]

gwnn, on Jun 21 2010, 10:53 AM, said:

If you want to optimise your avg number of tricks, low to the T is vastly superior to cash the Ace then low from hand.

In isolation maybe:

Small singleton is 3:2 favourite over singleton Q or J, but if the suit is 1:4, the chances of the long trump hand being able to ruff something (most likely the suit led) increases so you don't really want to lose to a singleton honour.

I'm not sure which you assumed was hand, I was intending to cash the ace, and if nothing interesting happened, cross to the 3 small and hook on the second round. If an honour dropped, I'd probably cash the second top honour, as although it's less likely that LHO has QJ than Q or J, if he does, the same ruff possibility exists so I'll avoid it.

[gwnn]

You were talking about overtricks, I assumed you were talking about 12 vs 13 tricks. You will win 13 tricks almost 6 times as often if you play low to the 8 than your proposed line.

[vuroth]

hanp, on Jun 21 2010, 09:26 AM, said:

think deeper

The bridgehands line, finesse repeatedly, is inferior to the suggested line. It loses to the following holdings with LHO:
QJ
QJx
QJxx
QJxxx

If you can stand one loser, you're better off either finessing first round, then low to the ace, or ace then finesse. Either line picks up all 3-2s, and only fails to LHO having:
QJxx
QJxxx

So it comes down to overtricks.

Neither gains an avantage when RHO started with QJxxx - you lose 1 trick either way. Ace first gains an overtrick vs LHO holding singleton honour. Finesse first never gains an overtrick, as far as I can tell.

V

[nigel_k]

vuroth, on Jun 22 2010, 06:10 AM, said:

Neither gains an avantage when RHO started with QJxxx - you lose 1 trick either way. Ace first gains an overtrick vs LHO holding singleton honour. Finesse first never gains an overtrick, as far as I can tell.

For an overtrick, finesse first gains when LHO has a small singleton so is 3-2 better than cashing Ace. Either is fine for one loser at beginner/intermediate level.

If I really was playing for one loser, with no risk of them ruffing something, I would look at whether I can safely cash side winners and reduce my trumps so I can make when LHO has QJxx.

[Cyberyeti]

vuroth, on Jun 21 2010, 12:10 PM, said:

hanp, on Jun 21 2010, 09:26 AM, said:

think deeper

The bridgehands line, finesse repeatedly, is inferior to the suggested line. It loses to the following holdings with LHO:
QJ
QJx
QJxx
QJxxx

If you can stand one loser, you're better off either finessing first round, then low to the ace, or ace then finesse. Either line picks up all 3-2s, and only fails to LHO having:
QJxx
QJxxx

So it comes down to overtricks.

Neither gains an avantage when RHO started with QJxxx - you lose 1 trick either way. Ace first gains an overtrick vs LHO holding singleton honour. Finesse first never gains an overtrick, as far as I can tell.

V

I think the bridgehands line misstated itself slightly. Small to the 10, then you finesse again if it holds. Clearly if it loses, you cash a top honour next as this is zero cost and clarifies the position.

If there's no risk of a ruff, small to the 10 is clearly better from the overtrick point of view, but in the real world, your best chance of playing the suit for one loser with the risk of a ruff is to bang the ace down first.

Finesse first gains the overtrick to QJx or QJxx onside with enough entries.

[vuroth]

Cyberyeti, on Jun 21 2010, 04:32 PM, said:

Finesse first gains the overtrick to QJx or QJxx onside with enough entries.

This is why I have trouble at the table sometimes. Over and over in my head, and I still see the AK in my hand down either line.

[kgr]

Isn't the best line of thinking at the table:
3-2 is more likely, so I should always make when Spades are 3-2.
But can I also protect against 4-1? No when QJxx is off side.
What is most likely; x off side or an honour off side?
x can be 3 cards; honour can be 2 cards (Q or J).
So it is more likely that a singleton x is off side then a singleton H.
=> Finesse first to protect against singleton x off side; When that looses then play trumps from the top to win when the are 3-2.
 
Or is there a better way to think this through at the table?

[Cyberyeti]

kgr, on Jun 22 2010, 04:05 AM, said:

Isn't the best line of thinking at the table:
3-2 is more likely, so I should always make when Spades are 3-2.
But can I also protect against 4-1? No when QJxx is off side.
What is most likely; x off side or an honour off side?
x can be 3 cards; honour can be 2 cards (Q or J).
So it is more likely that a singleton x is off side then a singleton H.
=> Finesse first to protect against singleton x off side; When that looses then play trumps from the top to win when the are 3-2.
 
Or is there a better way to think this through at the table?

The way of thinking should be:

1. Can I consider the spade suit in isolation ? Example: they've led a (4th highest) 2 of a side suit of which you only hold a total of 4 cards, so there's not likely to be any possibility of a ruff)

2. Do I have any constraint in terms of entries on what I want to do.

3. Ok, so I've decided that there's no chance of a ruff, and I have plenty of entries, so what is the best technical play. What holdings matter here:

Sitting over the AK1098, QJ, H, x, void, xx, Hx, QJx.

How do I maximise first of all my chance of making 12 tricks.

Well for 12 tricks, small to the 10 first or ace first ?

Ace first then small to the 10 will get you 12 tricks any time 12 tricks can be made.

Small to the 10, then ace, will also make you 12 tricks any time 12 tricks can be made.

Small to the 10, then small to the 9 loses to QJ and QJx so is clearly undesirable.

Ace first then finesse will make you 13 tricks whenever LHO holds a singleton honour.

Finesse the 10 first then ace will make 13 whenever LHO holds a small singleton or doubleton so is better.

I took the view that if the ruff could not be ruled out, you don't want to lose to a singleton or doubleton if you can avoid it, hence what I recommended in previous posts, where you avoid losing the lead to singleton honour or QJ doubleton.

[kgr]

Cyberyeti, on Jun 22 2010, 12:27 PM, said:

...
Ace first then small to the 10 will get you 12 tricks any time 12 tricks can be made.

Small to the 10, then ace, will also make you 12 tricks any time 12 tricks can be made
....

Thanks.
Somehow I missed this
Maybe I should edit that remark in my OP.